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CEF Traveling Engine
Win This Engine!
Live on Patrol
My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
Page 1 of 1
My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
batjac Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:16 am
Since I joined the CEF seven year ago, I’ve continually quested for a plane that I won’t care if I crash. But I haven’t found one yet. No matter how ugly the plane, I still can’t bear to crash them. Definitely the reason I’m not advancing. A couple of days ago something made me start thinking of the Testors Ambush. Not sure if it was a thread here or somewhere else. So I looked at the plans again. The whole plane was designed to be built with two sheets of 1/8x3x36 balsa and a couple of scraps of 1/8 ply, so I pulled out a couple of sheets of balsa and printed out the plans.
But, as anyone who’s read my past posts knows, I can’t just build per the plans. I’ve always thought the firewall construction was rather cumbersome. So, to save work and time, the magic Brodak Mount came out. Since the fuselage is 1/8” balsa, I figured I’d use 1/16” ply for doublers and have the right width for the engine mount. Horror of Horrors! I couldn’t find any 1/16” ply! Ah, well. On to the next best thing, if not a better solution. Instead of 1/8 for the fuse, I would use 3/16 for the fuse for more strength and use 1/32” ply for the doublers. I think this is a better, if not quicker arrangement. The rest is more or less stock. Here’s the bare bones plane. The fuse height as designed is exactly right for the Brodak mount.
Since I don’t want to care, I looked for the most unwanted, leftover covering I have. At least the most unwanted that I have enough of to cover the whole plane. So I grabbed the roll of mystery no-name red covering in my box. I really don’t like this stuff, so maybe I’ll abuse this plane more. The pictures look kinda pink, but it’s bright red under my work lights. Here it is covered and ready to fly:
I built the adjustable leadout guide per the plans, but I’m not sure yet if I like it. The guide is a stand lone part that is pinned in place in the wing. One pin through the front of the guide and one at the back hold it in place. To adjust the leadout positions, you pull the rear pin and the guide tilts up so you can select different positions.
Hopefully I’ll get it in the air tomorrow. The Black Widow is well exercised recently and should run like a champ.
The Contender Mark
But, as anyone who’s read my past posts knows, I can’t just build per the plans. I’ve always thought the firewall construction was rather cumbersome. So, to save work and time, the magic Brodak Mount came out. Since the fuselage is 1/8” balsa, I figured I’d use 1/16” ply for doublers and have the right width for the engine mount. Horror of Horrors! I couldn’t find any 1/16” ply! Ah, well. On to the next best thing, if not a better solution. Instead of 1/8 for the fuse, I would use 3/16 for the fuse for more strength and use 1/32” ply for the doublers. I think this is a better, if not quicker arrangement. The rest is more or less stock. Here’s the bare bones plane. The fuse height as designed is exactly right for the Brodak mount.
Since I don’t want to care, I looked for the most unwanted, leftover covering I have. At least the most unwanted that I have enough of to cover the whole plane. So I grabbed the roll of mystery no-name red covering in my box. I really don’t like this stuff, so maybe I’ll abuse this plane more. The pictures look kinda pink, but it’s bright red under my work lights. Here it is covered and ready to fly:
I built the adjustable leadout guide per the plans, but I’m not sure yet if I like it. The guide is a stand lone part that is pinned in place in the wing. One pin through the front of the guide and one at the back hold it in place. To adjust the leadout positions, you pull the rear pin and the guide tilts up so you can select different positions.
Hopefully I’ll get it in the air tomorrow. The Black Widow is well exercised recently and should run like a champ.
The Contender Mark
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
balogh Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:10 am
It is certainly a nice little plane Mark, and I like to idea of your adjustable lead out. ...just do not crash it even if you built it not to care about crashing! Have safe maiden flight.. 
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
Mike1484 Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:02 am
Hi Mark ,
Looks like a winner to me . Simple and quick to build , I like the lead out guide and think I'll try it out on my next build . Good job Mark .
Mike1484
Looks like a winner to me . Simple and quick to build , I like the lead out guide and think I'll try it out on my next build . Good job Mark .
Mike1484
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
rsv1cox Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:12 pm
Mark, you do come up with some conventional non-conventional stuff. I love the simple design and ease of construction and especially the lead-out guide. The pins are genius and something that I never personally seen before. That's a mighty elevator on that bird.
I have some decades old light blue monokote that would do well for a project like that. But I would use expanded SIG 4" airfoil for the wing cut to those dimensions, but SIG hasn't had that in stock for months despite my protests.
I have some decades old light blue monokote that would do well for a project like that. But I would use expanded SIG 4" airfoil for the wing cut to those dimensions, but SIG hasn't had that in stock for months despite my protests.
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
NEW222 Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:50 pm
That is really a looker. Great job on it. Simple yet very attractive.
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
NEW222 Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:53 pm
rsv1cox wrote:But I would use expanded SIG 4" airfoil for the wing cut to those dimensions, but SIG hasn't had that in stock for months despite my protests.
Keep your eyes on the Sig website. Rumor has it that there is a ship sitting at or near Montreal right now with its a bunch of Sig stuff. I do speculate though that when it does come in to them and listed, it will go fast as did the last time they had an order come in. Just thought I would let you know.
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
Cribbs74 Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:34 pm
Mark,
Take this with a grain of salt. It took me roughly 5yrs to go from a Newb to flying a really ugly pattern. I probably could have cut that down to maybe 2.5 yrs if I had flown every day and I could have again cut that down even further if I had chosen to build a proper stunt ship out of the gate. I learned how to fly inverted the first time I went from 1/2A to a .35 sized plane.
Ken Cook told me I would crash often. That is a fact I accepted really early on. The only plane that I was ever upset about losing was custom built Cardinal, mostly because I crashed it on contest day, also destroyed Lew Woolard Fox .40 in the process. It was a humbling and embarrassing experience.
If you really want to improve it won’t be with a reed powered slab wing design. You are better off with the Sky Ray or Twister. Those a proper flying stunt trainers that will get the job done.
1/2A is really difficult to learn with because it is stupid fast when trying to develop skill. If you are dead set on sticking with 1/2A I would suggest a “Stork” medallion powered. It’s a large 1/2A that flys like a full stunter and the Medallion will provide a clean run which is crucial.
Your skill is only part of the equation, the larger part relies on a good reliable stunt plane, properly trimmed with smooth consistent engine runs. The cool thing about it is once you can stunt with a larger plane it will improve your 1/2A flying considerably.
Again I am far from the authority here. I have a lot of work left to do, I am just trying to save you from more pain and frustration.
Ron
Take this with a grain of salt. It took me roughly 5yrs to go from a Newb to flying a really ugly pattern. I probably could have cut that down to maybe 2.5 yrs if I had flown every day and I could have again cut that down even further if I had chosen to build a proper stunt ship out of the gate. I learned how to fly inverted the first time I went from 1/2A to a .35 sized plane.
Ken Cook told me I would crash often. That is a fact I accepted really early on. The only plane that I was ever upset about losing was custom built Cardinal, mostly because I crashed it on contest day, also destroyed Lew Woolard Fox .40 in the process. It was a humbling and embarrassing experience.
If you really want to improve it won’t be with a reed powered slab wing design. You are better off with the Sky Ray or Twister. Those a proper flying stunt trainers that will get the job done.
1/2A is really difficult to learn with because it is stupid fast when trying to develop skill. If you are dead set on sticking with 1/2A I would suggest a “Stork” medallion powered. It’s a large 1/2A that flys like a full stunter and the Medallion will provide a clean run which is crucial.
Your skill is only part of the equation, the larger part relies on a good reliable stunt plane, properly trimmed with smooth consistent engine runs. The cool thing about it is once you can stunt with a larger plane it will improve your 1/2A flying considerably.
Again I am far from the authority here. I have a lot of work left to do, I am just trying to save you from more pain and frustration.
Ron
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
Jason_WI Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:50 am
Piece-o-cake on lines. 36” span on an .049. Bet that flys nice and slow.
https://brodak.com/control-line-kits/brodak/1-2-a-series/1-2a-stork.html
https://brodak.com/control-line-kits/brodak/1-2-a-series/1-2a-stork.html
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
batjac Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:20 am
Ron, I appreciate the input. Believe me, I have no shortage of large .25 to .46 sized planes. I build large, too. Currently flight ready are: Two full sized Ringmasters, three full sized Flight Streaks (well, one is a Doodle Streak and one is a FliteRay, and a fourth ARF in a box on standby) an Electric Super Clown, an electric E-Flight PT-19, a Smoothie, a Magician (the SNAFU design, not the PDQ design), and three identical Skyray 35s.
But I'm still just a 1/2A guy at heart. I love flying 1/2A more than larger planes. I usually take a large plane and a couple of 1/2A planes when I go to the field. The Ambush is just something I've been thinking about building for a few years and I suddenly wanted a one-day build that I'm not invested in.
Jason, when I first read this, I thought you were talking about this on lines:
The Eternal Kid Mark
But I'm still just a 1/2A guy at heart. I love flying 1/2A more than larger planes. I usually take a large plane and a couple of 1/2A planes when I go to the field. The Ambush is just something I've been thinking about building for a few years and I suddenly wanted a one-day build that I'm not invested in.
Jason_WI wrote:Piece-o-cake on lines. 36” span on an .049. Bet that flys nice and slow.
https://brodak.com/control-line-kits/brodak/1-2-a-series/1-2a-stork.html
Jason, when I first read this, I thought you were talking about this on lines:
The Eternal Kid Mark
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
Jason_WI Thu Sep 24, 2020 4:06 am
Just referencing the huge wingspan. I have a piece o cake kit in the closet. I have a bunch of kits I was squirreling away for later.
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
batjac Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:27 am
Just re-read the posts. Just to be clear, the leadout idea isn't mine. It is how "Wild" Bill Netzband designed it. I just built the leadout guide as designed.
Also, I forgot to add that I glued in a 1/8" stick of spruce to the leading edge for crash protection. The fuselage is supposed to be built in sections, with the upper fuse glued to the wing and stab, then the lower fuse glued to those. Still seemed cumbersome and time wasting. Besides, I wasn't so sure how strong the sectional fuse would be at the engine mount, even with the doublers. So I built it as a single piece fuse and glued the wing and stab into that. After the plane was covered, I cut out the section between the wing t.e. and the stab, and glued in the strengthening cross piece.
The Mild Mark
Also, I forgot to add that I glued in a 1/8" stick of spruce to the leading edge for crash protection. The fuselage is supposed to be built in sections, with the upper fuse glued to the wing and stab, then the lower fuse glued to those. Still seemed cumbersome and time wasting. Besides, I wasn't so sure how strong the sectional fuse would be at the engine mount, even with the doublers. So I built it as a single piece fuse and glued the wing and stab into that. After the plane was covered, I cut out the section between the wing t.e. and the stab, and glued in the strengthening cross piece.
The Mild Mark
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
batjac Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:56 am
rsv1cox wrote:Mark, you do come up with some conventional non-conventional stuff. I love the simple design and ease of construction and especially the lead-out guide. The pins are genius and something that I never personally seen before. That's a mighty elevator on that bird.
I have some decades old light blue monokote that would do well for a project like that. But I would use expanded SIG 4" airfoil for the wing cut to those dimensions, but SIG hasn't had that in stock for months despite my protests.
The elevator IS huge. "Wild Bill" Netzband really liked to build big tail surfaces on his planes. Do a search for the Doodlebug over on SH to see how he designed. I have the deflection right at 20 degrees for the elevator. That's the minimum I could go with this elevator horn and bellcrank. The horn is not the one that comes with the bellcrank, it's a Goldberg 1/2A control horn. I also thought about the SIG airfoiled balsa. I have a sheet of 4" airfoiled balsa I saw when I was pulling out the sheets of 1/8" balsa. But the wing root has a 6" chord, and the tip root is 3 1/4", so it'd have a really funky transition from airfoiled to flat about a third of the way in from the tips.
The Nuclear Soul Mark
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
getback Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:41 am
Looks Good enough to fly/crash to me . It's just wood and some labor/fun rest of the parts can bee saved (most the time ) 
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
crankbndr Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:07 am
Seems like I remember BTC in the past.
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
batjac Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:08 am
Might as well put up a link for the plans:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=11866
The Helpful Mark
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=11866
The Helpful Mark
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
batjac Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:12 am
crankbndr wrote:Seems like I remember BTC in the past.
True. But even though they were built to crash, I still hated to crash them. I crashed my BTC-4 about three weeks ago at our club Labor Day fly-in. Only took 10 minutes with some Medium CA to put back in flying condition, but it still hurt.
The Wounded Mark
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
944_Jim Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:07 pm
A twin! How did I miss this? I want one or two...
Ummmm...where are the plans?
Ummmm...where are the plans?
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
batjac Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:51 pm
Thread with plans and video here:
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t7275-the-latest-btc-4-variant-a-k-a-marks-most-recent-folly
A note on cutting out for the wing on the fuse and nacelles. Just cut the fuselage, set it on your build table standing up, and hold the end of your airfoil shaped balsa sheet against the side of the fuse. Use a pencil to mark the airfoil shape of the wing on the fuse and make the perfect cutout. Same for the nacelle. Also, I made a mistake by stopping the spruce stick on the bottom where I did. When I crashed the plane three weeks ago, it snapped the fuselage right where the spruce stick ended. If you try this, make the spruce stick go all the way to the end. If I had, the plane would have survived the crash.
The Designer Mark
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t7275-the-latest-btc-4-variant-a-k-a-marks-most-recent-folly
A note on cutting out for the wing on the fuse and nacelles. Just cut the fuselage, set it on your build table standing up, and hold the end of your airfoil shaped balsa sheet against the side of the fuse. Use a pencil to mark the airfoil shape of the wing on the fuse and make the perfect cutout. Same for the nacelle. Also, I made a mistake by stopping the spruce stick on the bottom where I did. When I crashed the plane three weeks ago, it snapped the fuselage right where the spruce stick ended. If you try this, make the spruce stick go all the way to the end. If I had, the plane would have survived the crash.
The Designer Mark
Last edited by batjac on Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
F4D Phantom II Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:57 pm
batjac wrote:Might as well put up a link for the plans:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=11866
The Helpful Mark
Hello batjac
Bill Netzeband also designed the PAT-1 a nice flying trainer. I have built a few for my kids. Nice job on the ambush.
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=12480
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
944_Jim Thu Sep 24, 2020 7:52 pm
batjac wrote:Thread with plans and video here:
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t7275-the-latest-btc-4-variant-a-k-a-marks-most-recent-folly
The Designer Mark
Saved. I loved the sound off those twins! It reminded me of my BHM Mossie.
Thanks for the info.
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Ambush
roddie Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:33 pm
I've liked that Ambush design ever since Kim posted about the "Patton Street Pirate Pilots" which featured that airplane as a tutorial for some neighborhood kids.. that all were given one by donation.
Here's the thread.. it's a good read..
The Patton St. Pirate Pilots
Here's the thread.. it's a good read..
The Patton St. Pirate Pilots
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
Oldenginerod Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:58 pm
roddie wrote:I've liked that Ambush design ever since Kim posted about the "Patton Street Pirate Pilots" which featured that airplane as a tutorial for some neighborhood kids.. that all were given one by donation.
Here's the thread.. it's a good read..
The Patton St. Pirate Pilots
That was a great story about the "Pirate Pilots". What ever happened to them?
I have a couple of Testors 8000 engines that the Ambush was designed for. Maybe that's a sign that I need to build one!!
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
roddie Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:34 pm
Oldenginerod wrote:roddie wrote:I've liked that Ambush design ever since Kim posted about the "Patton Street Pirate Pilots" which featured that airplane as a tutorial for some neighborhood kids.. that all were given one by donation.
Here's the thread.. it's a good read..
The Patton St. Pirate Pilots
That was a great story about the "Pirate Pilots". What ever happened to them?
I have a couple of Testors 8000 engines that the Ambush was designed for. Maybe that's a sign that I need to build one!!
Hey Rod! Regarding the Pirate Pilots; I don't know what became of them and their C/L aero-modelling.. but there was s Their mentor Allen Brickhaus sadly passed away in the midst of the project. That had to be tough on every one of those kids. Our CEF member Kim may know if the Pirates are stilll active,
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Re: My Never Ending Quest to build a plane I don’t care if I crash.
aspeed Sun Sep 27, 2020 5:09 pm
Yes, I was wondering if any of those kids were still at it. I made a coroplast combat plane about 30 years ago that is still around. Used a TD .051 that was so worn that it was hard to start. Ran ok if you could get it going. I think it has a Norvel in now. It can hit the ground with little to no damage. The control horn broke once because it was so brittle with age. 
A friend wanted a plan for a simple .15 plane for his kid. I sent him the Ambush .15 plan. I thought maybe the blue fanfold or coroplast may be an update.
A friend wanted a plan for a simple .15 plane for his kid. I sent him the Ambush .15 plan. I thought maybe the blue fanfold or coroplast may be an update.
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