Re: Plans to revive the Cox .049 Tee Dee?

HalfaDave Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:07 pm

Hi Cox international,

I made a big mistake offering $100cdn...
Please forgive me...
I still want one,
Dave

P.S. Postage? It did not stop us in the 70's...

Surfer_kris Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:14 pm

HalfaDave wrote:Hi balogh, surfer kris,

If you think there is a 'majic' Cox cyl/piston...
Good luck with that.
They all run great, some better than others.
If you think my 70s era TDs might have taper bore, SPI and whatever,
I can mail them to you. If you want.
I would like to mail them to Bernie.
He knows what to do.

I had a friend with a single port BabyBee. Swordsman18. It spent a frozen winter under his back deck.
Spring came.
All the 'dual ports' , same nitro could not match it. Same props, everything else we could try.
This is the fun,
Of Cox Engines,
For me,
Dave

Yes the single port BabeBee worked very well, especially on larger props. Stable runs and good fuel economy.
In my experience the sure-start cylinders are not made to the same quality as the earlier cox products. I see it more as a quality thing than anything else.

Surfer_kris Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:20 pm

Cox International wrote:
We actually had thousands of cylinder / piston sets made and they equal pre-Estes performance, and can be purchased on our website.

Are these really new sets, made from scratch, or just the sure-starts with the exhaust remachined to remove the centre bar?
(I did get some of those and I don't want to make the same mistake again)

HalfaDave Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:01 pm

Hi All,
I just put down my slide rule, and a Cox TD.049 here in Toronto area in the 70s cost 25.200+ change.
-I know they were over $25
-Not $2500

I can estimate from here,
I want an International CoxTD.049
Take care,
Have fun,
Dave

cstatman Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:20 pm

WOW, lots of excitement, lots of questions and recommendations

but I did not see anyone replying to the most important question.

What would you pay - (today, not in 1973) for a brand new TD?

not what are they on ebay, or what are they if you did this and that.
If you could buy a brand new TD.049 today. How much would you pay?

$85
$100
$120

layback209 Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:27 pm

I mensioned above I would buy and or would do a pre order at $125CAD or 100USD.

May not be viable but that's my number today Eyebrows

Cox International Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:48 pm

HalfaDave wrote:Hi Cox international,

I made a big mistake offering $100cdn...
Please forgive me...
I still want one,
Dave

P.S. Postage? It did not stop us in the 70's...

Dave,

We did not se this as an "offer"; we are just trying to get an idea what the market may be.

Cox International Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:50 pm

Surfer_kris wrote:
Cox International wrote:
We actually had thousands of cylinder / piston sets made and they equal pre-Estes performance, and can be purchased on our website.

Are these really new sets, made from scratch, or just the sure-starts with the exhaust remachined to remove the centre bar?
(I did get some of those and I don't want to make the same mistake again)

New production run, made to OEM Cox drawings and hand-matched at the office.

Cox International Tue Feb 07, 2023 7:56 pm

cstatman wrote:WOW, lots of excitement, lots of questions and recommendations

but I did not see anyone replying to the most important question.

What would you pay - (today, not in 1973) for a brand new TD?

not what are they on ebay, or what are they if you did this and that.
If you could buy a brand new TD.049 today. How much would you pay?

$85
$100
$120

Best estimate is that they would be offered for US$89 retail but we still have to get quotes for some parts. The needle valve bodies are going to be expensive. Out of the 17 parts required, we already manufacture 13 of them, so depends what the remaining 4 will cost.

roddie Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:01 pm

Surfer_kris wrote:The cylinder and piston would have to be made properly, and that would go a long way I guess. No real need to make a full engine if there could be a supply of piston and cylinder sets that equal the performance provided before the Estes era.

I agree with Kris, Those are the key-parts to both; performance and longevity. A high-performance "top-end" that requires initial break-in runs.. to properly run-in that "pinch-taper" just below TDC.. the way that the earliest engines were designed. These were the engines that Joe Klaus of Kustom Kraftsmanship used to "hop-up".. before Cox production fell into less caring hands...
Pre-fit cyl./piston assemblies having the above attention to detail.. and original porting.. (thin-wall cylinder? not sure about that.. but may be worth a quote) IMHO would sell more units.. than complete engines. The "bottom-ends" are less of a commodity.. and repro-parts are currently being produced for some of those components., not to mention what's still out there in N.O.S.

I'd say that P/C sets alone.. could command between $40-60 if made to the original Cox specs.

Cox International Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:21 pm

roddie wrote:
Surfer_kris wrote:The cylinder and piston would have to be made properly, and that would go a long way I guess. No real need to make a full engine if there could be a supply of piston and cylinder sets that equal the performance provided before the Estes era.

I'd say that P/C sets alone.. could command between $40-60 if made to the original Cox specs.

Here is a bit of a reality check:

In the past few years we have come across several of those older, tapered, sets and auctioned them on eBay, together with the correct description. The most we ever got for a set was $36, and that only because it was the only listing of such.

Once the market is flooded with a production run of, say, 1,000 units; the price will likely stabilize around the $20 to $25 mark, yet will be more expensive to produce that the non-tapered version.

One of the problems with the older sets is that they had a total of six channels inside (as opposed to the newer ones with four channels); whereas the 4-channel versions outperform the 6-channel versions. So effectively, one would be paying the same or more, but for less performance.

And for those that are planning to contest the last sentence, we would be happy to publish an email from Larry Renger (former Cox engineer); explaining why four performs better than six. Sometimes, more is not better lol!

balogh Tue Feb 07, 2023 8:42 pm

As far as I know. even the 6 channel, stepped wall cylinders ceased to have taper bore around 1974 , so not all 6 channel cylinders are taper bore, but all taper bore TD cylinders have 6 channels. Taper bore - in my opinion - is not improving the performance in new engines, but adds longevity, thus sustains performance longer in used engines, at least in my experience. Of course it is understandably more costly to produce.

Later produced thick wall stock TD cylinders have only 4 channels, 2 bypass and only 2 booster flutes, and because the boosters are machined into the bypass ports on its one side only, the asymmetric velocity profile in the channel results in a spin of the fuel charge as it enters the combustion chamber, its burning is more efficient and faster, resulting probably in a bit more performance ( that at least I did not notice) than 6 channel cylinders..these are my experience, "your results may vary", as Dave often concludes his posts.

cstatman Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:52 pm

at $89-ish? I am IN for at least one, maybe 2.

**944_Jim** Thu Feb 09, 2023 5:37 am

Mr. Bernie,
Since you mentioned Tee Dees, is there any hope of seeing new Medallions?

I'm assuming for either series, the hard part is spray bars (Medallion) and/or venturies/sprinklers (Tee Dee). It appears as though the other "hard parts" are still available (crank, case, and intake body plastic).

batjac Thu Feb 09, 2023 8:50 am

Berni, I realize that these days the CEF is something of a default site for Cox engine activity, but I remember back to when I first saw posts by this strange Xenalook person over on RCG. Just curious why you haven't also ask for input over on RCG for interest. I realize that they're not quite as hard core Cox over there, or maybe as reliable when they say they are willing to shell out money like those on here. But thought that some of the people over there who don't check out CEF might be interested.

The Nostalgic Mark

balogh Thu Feb 09, 2023 9:08 am

I agree with Mark...in addition, there is a group on Facebook called COX Model Engine Owners who may also be interested..

bsadonkill Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:35 pm

Personally, I would be more interested in .020 parts.

Cox International Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:46 pm

944_Jim wrote:Mr. Bernie,
Since you mentioned Tee Dees, is there any hope of seeing new Medallions?

I'm assuming for either series, the hard part is spray bars (Medallion) and/or venturies/sprinklers (Tee Dee). It appears as though the other "hard parts" are still available (crank, case, and intake body plastic).

In our opinion, there is little point in offering a Medallion (a lesser-performing engine) for the same price as a Tee Dee. If someone wants less power that the TD offers, it would be easy to de-tune the engine.

In the Cox days, the Medallion was the "poor man's Tee Dee" but now pricing would be almost the same.

Cox International Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:47 pm

bsadonkill wrote:Personally, I would be more interested in .020 parts.

We hear you but we need to allocate scarce funds to where the buyers are. 049 outsells 020 by at least 500%.

Cox International Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:57 pm

batjac wrote:Berni, I realize that these days the CEF is something of a default site for Cox engine activity, but I remember back to when I first saw posts by this strange Xenalook person over on RCG. Just curious why you haven't also ask for input over on RCG for interest. I realize that they're not quite as hard core Cox over there, or maybe as reliable when they say they are willing to shell out money like those on here. But thought that some of the people over there who don't check out CEF might be interested.

The Nostalgic Mark

Mark,

"Xenalook" was the name of one of our eBay stores, before we changed it to "Coxengines"; so it was us posting there, and "strange" I have been called before, but not as often as "crazy" and "weird" lol!

We used to post there but it simply became to too much SM to attend to. Between FB and this forum we are already spending too much time with posts; especially this week.

The whole point of this post was to get some input in regards to pricing but it has become a monster of sorts; the proverbial can of worms.

The reality is that, anyone performing an online search for a Cox item that includes the word "Cox" will invariably find us, as we imprint tops in organic SERP (Search Engine Resuls Page).

Cox International Thu Feb 09, 2023 4:58 pm

balogh wrote:I agree with Mark...in addition, there is a group on Facebook called COX Model Engine Owners who may also be interested..

Please see reply to "batjac"

CheapImitation Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:08 pm

I love Tee Dee 049's but they are no longer competitive. I use them only for nostalgia models. I think you could sell a small number of new Tee Dee .049s for about $125.00. To sell any kind of real numbers they would have to be down to $75.00 as they are readily available used for $50.00 or less (I've never paid over $25.00 for one). Consider making a good NVA similar to the KK and really good replaceable glow plug heads similar to the Galbreath one instead.

Cox International Thu Feb 09, 2023 11:26 pm

CheapImitation wrote:I love Tee Dee 049's but they are no longer competitive. I use them only for nostalgia models. I think you could sell a small number of new Tee Dee .049s for about $125.00. To sell any kind of real numbers they would have to be down to $75.00 as they are readily available used for $50.00 or less (I've never paid over $25.00 for one). Consider making a good NVA similar to the KK and really good replaceable glow plug heads similar to the Galbreath one instead.

They will presumably be priced @ $89 but will be exactly as Cox made them over decades. This is to ensure compatibility of parts, going back over 50 years and to then also have all the parts available to supply to buyers that have existing TD 049 and 051 engines (using 049 cylinder/piston sets).

Whenever we list refurbished ones on our website (excellent condition) for $69, they rarely last the night, so $20 more for a new one should work. Monitoring eBay auctions for used ones the last couple on months, the auctions seem mostly to end in the $50 to $80 range, depending on condition.

We will likely run 1,000 parts/each in order to get a half-way decent acquisition price.

batjac Fri Feb 10, 2023 12:47 am

Bernie, when I said strange, it could also have been synonymous with 'crazy'. I was thinking, "Everyone knows Cox is as dead as the Dodo. Who's this person who thinks they can revive the Cox empire with new engines?!? And why "Xinalook"? Did Lucy Lawless finally realize her career's in the tank and she's now shilling model engines?"

I now have to apologize for underestimating your abilities with the Cox brand. glad I was wrong.

The Humble Pie Mark

Cox International Fri Feb 10, 2023 1:06 am

batjac wrote:Bernie, when I said strange, it could also have been synonymous with 'crazy'. I was thinking, "Everyone knows Cox is as dead as the Dodo. Who's this person who thinks they can revive the Cox empire with new engines?!? And why "Xinalook"? Did Lucy Lawless finally realize her career's in the tank and she's now shilling model engines?"

I now have to apologize for underestimating your abilities with the Cox brand. glad I was wrong.

The Humble Pie Mark

Never any offence taken lol!

Just about everyone thought that I was nuts at the time.

Yep, big fan of the "Warrior Princess" ( of course only because of her acting capabilities Wink

) and, when my ex once dressed up like her, I said "hey, you really look like Xena". Hence "Xenalook" was born. We even had a "Xena's Pink Panther" engine for sale in 2009.

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