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cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane Empty cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane

Post  Yabby Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:27 pm

I have been flying a Scorpion https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5973  for a while now which is a profile slab wing model.

cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane Scorp011

the wing is 6mm / 1/4" sanded into a topside airfoyle with a flat bottom. Flies really well with the TD 049 on 42 foot steel. Loops with ease at all different heights and different diameter loops, and does really nice wingovers, I can walk the plane from side to side in wingovers and it all seems ok. But, when I try to do a Lazy 8 or go inverted by levelling off the top of a loop, rather than levelling off it dives straight into the ground. Tried several times same result. Other planes I have built myself with a very different wing design that are slab wings but have a much larger wing area in the centre and no airfoyle will fly inverted and do lazy 8s

cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane T111

is it something to do with the Scorpion design and or the airfoil top and flat bottom that causes this? Its very strange as the plane flies great otherwise
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cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane Empty Re: cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane

Post  944_Jim Sun Mar 12, 2023 10:59 pm

Y,
I'd consider modifying your chosen plane for a symmetrical airfoil wing. I'm also curious that your flat-plate wing is so affected by wing "rib" profile.

A flat bottom wing will turn better one way (up) than the other (which can really screw with an Cool, and fly quite well upside up. But flip the wing inverted, and you'll need a bit of "down" to fight the wing from going "up" into the ground.

I still think your plane should fly inverted provided you can level out coming off the top of the uphill turn. If this plane won't ease out of the downhill side and turn inverted, then there may be significant upthrust built into that motor mount. For this check, get your plane bubble-capsule level at the wing, and check the stab is parallel to the wing, and the prop drive plate is perpendicular to your wing lines. I think one of the guys here showed how to make a drive plate adapter out of angle aluminum specifically for checking engine thrust as compared to wing/elevator lines. Maybe he'll chime in shortly.

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Post  Yabby Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:27 pm

Thanks for that info @944_Jim . I suspected it would go one way better than the other but not, not go the way I want. I will check the allignments as you have suggested as that makes sense. The plane probably does tend to fly up a bit which I guess I just adjust for, but when trying to go inverted then it becomes problematic. It may also be that I am waiting too long to level it out. My other planes are very touchy and in car terms have a lot of oversteer whereas the scorpion has a lot of understeer. The understeer mixed with my trying to level it too late and an out of allignment engine would well result in whats happening.

The main thing is that I now know a plane like the scorpion should be able to fly inverted and do lazy 8s, which means its setup or pilot error, most likely both. lol!
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cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane Empty Re: cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane

Post  Ken Cook Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:21 am

I have to ask, does the plane fly well until you start trying to do a consecutive maneuver? A wing which is not symmetrical is just a poor maneuvering wing by design. As Jim mentioned, incidence issues could be the problem but overall I see a extremely draggy plane with little wingspan.Based on the picture above, I see too much elevator control which is acting like a air brake vs a elevator which will drop the plane out of the sky and cause it too stall. I see too much throw due to the pushrod being in the incorrect hole on the bellcrank. When the pushrod is pulled for up elevator it's less likely to bow whereas you have no support on the pushrod which will bow when inverted due to it pushing. In addition, the gap between the stab and elevator is extremely large which greatly reduces it's effectiveness. One other thing I see is the angle of the pushrod to the fuselage.

The pushrod being on a angle like you show in the pic can twist the fuselage at the same time as it's operating the elevator under load. This may have nothing to do with this situation. Why build a factor into the plane though? Move it over and make the pushrod parallel to the fuse which allows a pushrod guide to be installed without binding.

Any stunt pilot will tell you the key to success is keeping the speed up. Introduce a short wingspan into the equation and the engine now has to work even harder to do this. This is why rudder offset and engine offset is a poor way to maintain line tension. I see your leadouts swept back which appears more than I would prefer but I don't know this design but nonetheless, I personally would have them moved forward to the leading edge. Having them back strangles the plane causing it too slow down in the maneuvers you need the speed the most.

The problem with this scenario is that we as modelers change too much at one time to try and resolve the situation. Issues like this should be addressed one change at a time. However, in hindsight, another factor can be at play here. When one starts introducing maneuvers into the flight, there skills are increasing beyond the planes capabilities. If your looking at flying maneuvers and doing it successfully, these are not the planes to do it on.
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Post  Yabby Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:48 am

Thanks for all of the considered and valuable feedback. Yes, I can get it to tend to stall if I feed too much elevator to quickly. If I am careful I can get it to loop really nicely at a good speed and exit at a good speed. I will try moving the pushrod into the other hole and see if that helps. the sweepback on the leadouts Is my doing. I dont think the plan showed them as swept back as I put them. The wingspan is 20 inches. the plane is only intended as a very basic trainer and possibly not suited for the maneuvers Im trying to do. Although I suspect a more skilled pilot would be able to do it. I built and have flown the plane to slow my crash rate down and improve my loops and wingovers shape etc. It has definately done that. Possibly I will need to use another plane, but also getting the engine lined up properly and not tending to fly up will probably help. the suggestions you have made are very helpful and will build them into future planes I build. I think the overly swept back lines cause the plane to get quite out of shape sometimes.

The two complete pre-built Ukrainian combat wings I just got for my OS 15 and Enya 15 will be interesting to fly as I know they are reputed to be a very good plane and then it more comes down to my flying than my build skills and knowledge of how to build correctly.

thanks for the input! I will try and put it to good use. Thumbs Up cheers
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Post  Mike1484 Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:35 am

I agree with Cook that the push rod may be flexing.
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Post  Yabby Mon Mar 13, 2023 4:53 pm

Mike1484 wrote:I agree with Cook that the push rod may be flexing.
                                Mike1484

thanks for that!. On the ground the pushrod flexes easily. So I will try and resolve it on the plane.
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cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane Empty Re: cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane

Post  HalfaDave Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:47 am

Hi Yabby,

An easy fix is attaching 1/8sq balsa with thread/glue to the middle of the pushrod.
6in or so will keep it from flexing.
Learned about this back in the old Amberoid glue days... Smile
Also,
It looks like the control horn is behind the elevator hinge line.
This may give you more up than down...
+/- 40deg throw max. Anything more is airbrakes !
Wishing you tight lines,
Dave
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cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane Empty Re: cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane

Post  Yabby Wed Mar 15, 2023 1:55 am

HalfaDave wrote:Hi Yabby,

An easy fix is attaching 1/8sq balsa with thread/glue to the middle of the pushrod.
6in or so will keep it from flexing.
Learned about this back in the old Amberoid glue days... Smile
Also,
It looks like the control horn is behind the elevator hinge line.
This may give you more up than down...
+/- 40deg throw max. Anything more is airbrakes !
Wishing you tight lines,
Dave

Hi Dave, do you mean to get 1/8 inch square balsa and glue it/attach it for six inches along the pushrod?

As it is, I just went and tried to bend the push rod. Its fairly heavy music wire and I cannot bend it. What bends is the leadout wires if I try hard enough, but the elevator has to be at full throw before I can bend the lead out music wire.

The control horn is angled foward and is where the push rod connects is still behind the hinge pin. Should the point the push rod connect to the control horn be infront of the hinge pin?

the +/- deg throw max is very informative as I didnt dont know at what point in degrees roughly the elevator becomes an air break ( more so than it is normally) That will help build correctly from the start!.

I have a baby ringmaster slab profile that I will give a try and see how that goes. Hopefully I can fly it better and have built it better than I have the Scorpion.

thanks for the considered input. Beer Cheers It all helps me learn.

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Post  HalfaDave Wed Mar 15, 2023 11:18 am

Hi Yabby,

If the pushrod is not bending/bowing, then there is another reason you cannot pull out going inverted.
If the rod is bending, the balsa stick stiffens the middle of the rod to keep it straight.
The holes in the control horn should be above the hingeline for even +/-

Are your lines equal length? A longer down line would reduce down throw.

The Swordsman18s with GoldenBees on 30ft lines flew OK. (loops,inverted,wing overs) Don't recall doing lazy 8s with them.
That's why we moved up to Ringmasters/FlightStreaks...
Take care,
Have fun,
Dave


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Post  Yabby Wed Mar 15, 2023 10:15 pm

Hi Dave,

Lines are equal length. I think the engine is mounted properly. the plane tends to want to fly up in normal flight so I think that may be a big part of the problem. I can adjust that out in normal flight by how I hold my handle and in general its not a problem, but the moment you want to go inverted its going to be a problem. Plus not being the greatest of pilots doesnt help. Laughing
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Post  HalfaDave Fri Mar 17, 2023 10:59 am

Hi Yabby,
My sliderule/estimation is flat plate wings don't turn good.
(the drag goes way up, trying to get more lift out of them.)
You will like the F2D type planes...
Like hopping from a bicycle to a 'pick your cc.s' motorcycle... Cool
I have seen them fly, 80mph, is the 'beginner' class....
I think I still might be able to fly one.
I like engines and model airplanes...
Seeing a hand flip to increadable rpms on a latest .15, scared the 'beejeebers' out of me. !
Very impressive, from dirt plant to re-prop in 20 seconds, by the pitman. Shocked
The 80mph ones had OS.25s I think.
You will have amazing flying fun.
I remember an 'old Geeyzer' telling me,
"Fly the plane, or it will fly you."
Take care,
Have fun,
Dave
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cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane Empty Re: cannot do Lazy 8s or Inverted with plane

Post  Ken Cook Fri Mar 17, 2023 7:49 pm

F2D wings use bladders, if your not familiar with using bladders, I suggest you get acquainted with the process. Neither the Enya nor the OS can adequately use bladder pressure on the stock needle assembly. The Enya .15 is very timid but it can swing a 7" prop fairly well. A 7x4 would be my suggested choice at first. Using anymore pitch will severely bog the plane in the corners. These planes like consistent speed. Your engine choices are going to be a bit more heavier than what was spec'd for them. I do a few things such as making the elevators out of bass and I tape quarters to the covering at the tail using clear packing tape. A small prop allows for better turning vs a larger prop due to the gyroscopic forces the larger produces.

Don't use line clips with these planes as they will jam up ultimately crashing your plane. The leadouts usually have hooks with a piece of tubing. I like to double loop my steel lines at the terminations and when I use Spectra, it's a single loop or small split rings. Just some FYI on line length, F2D line length is 52'-3" with a + or - 1". This measurement is from center of handle to center of plane. For starters seeing that your engines choices are a bit anemic for the plane, I would start with 52'. You can always shorten them. This doesn't mean that your lines themselves are going to measure 52'. Center to center taking into account leadout wires and 1/2 the span of the wing.

When we fly with 25's, we use 100 lb test as the rules indicate. The breaking strength of these lines are the equivalent to .018" steel. Seeing that your a .15 displacement, these fly on .015'" steel. I see no reason why 80 lb Spectra wouldn't suffice here leaving way more safety margin then needed.

What OS.15 are you planning on using? The steelfin OS was a fairly stout runner for what it was. The following generation all aluminum .15 doesn't offer a whole lot of power. The FP .15 in my opinion is a terrific choice and we were running them at 20K using 7" props, no venturi and 35% nitro. The LA .15 in my opinion doesn't match the performance of the FP it replaced. It's remote needle valve will work with bladder pressure but it's taper is incorrect therefore it can't lean out properly like it needs too.

For your initial flights, I would add additional tip weight to the outboard even if you see tip weight inside the wing. I use quarters which is almost 6 grams a piece. I start with 2 taped on the outboard wing. Clean with alcohol and use a fresh piece of tape over it. Remove if the wing is excessively dropping.

One problem with wings is that many don't understand how to launch them. If you have a launcher to assist you, the prop is close to the leading edge and one can't see it spinning. The launcher needs to understand where to place his or her hands. Colored tape on the leading edge keeps hands out of danger. One should just cup the leading with their hands and just open their fingers. Many times fingers catch the leading edge which rotates the wing vertically and it's game over for the inexperienced.
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Post  Yabby Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:11 pm

Thanks for the advice Ken Thumbs Up The planes have hard tanks in them. they previously had Fora 2.5cc Diesel in them. My engine choice is my 15 OS LA or my Enya 15 III, so I will go for my OS. When I fly it I will fly it in the city with soemone who knows how to fly and launch one of these planes. The Fora will have been heavier than the OS ( we will check the weights) but puts out heaps more power. I am thinking I will fly it on Spectra rather than steel.

Interesting about the line clips jamming up! I have often wondered about that and honestly believe I have had a problem with that with some planes before. I am leaning to flying it on 45 foot lines first up. I would rather get screwed into the ground first flight than have really bad line tension problems. I will certainly set the control horn to be as limited as possible first up.

I will also do as suggested on the wingtip with taping extra weights on there and can remove as/if needed.

When I was young we used to launch wings by holding the end of the wing and just letting go or as you have described. Launch is the major issue for me as I know it needs someone who knows what they are doing or it can go very wrong. I probably wont get to fly them very often. Maybe wasnt my best investment, but.......... I fly everything from a stooge launch table with the plane at the edge of the table and the stooge just releases it. might be a method that works out such that I can fly it on my own, but I doubt it.

thanks for the pointer on the Props Thumbs Up I noted that properly on second read and will check the props I have. It will be interesting if nothing else thats for sure. lol! I pick them up next Friday and once setup need to find a decent weekend when I can fly them in the city with someone who knows what they are doing

the engines will not be using mufflers.

thanks Ken @Ken Cook Thumbs Up Beer Cheers
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:08 am

Gary, there are all different varieties of line clips. Some much better than others. I probably should've stated not to use Luxon slide clips. They're the largest, most common, the weakest and the easiest to become jammed. I use them all the time due to convenience. That being said, they could be used if you slip tubing over top of them. Using tubing over the connection is standard in combat land. We do it at the handle and the plane end. I've become intertwined with my opponent before when he neglected to do it at the handle end which resulted in me wanting to choke him.

Diesels in general are not particular picky when it comes to tanks, glow on the other hand can be a bit more problematic. The only tanks I use on wings are for vintage combat which use baffle piston engines. These engine are not generally tank picky and height is the usual issue. Most vintage designs have the tank in the ideal location which is directly behind the engine. I've run into issues using the Enya where the tank pickup being outboard created a condition I couldn't resolve. No matter what I would do, the engine would just lean and lean all the way to the end which isn't good for this engine. The LA is very tolerable of this and won't succumb to problems that could occur like the Enya. Having a Enya that's not broken in it's entirety is also not recommended. To resolve some of this, I made the tank uniflow which helped but didn't work completely. I'm not certain of how the tanks are installed in the diesel F2D wings. I've seen them and I don't generally pay attention to them. Diesels stink so bad no one here wants you even to run them nor will they launch them so they're out. My son and I are the only users of diesels in these parts. My son mixes the fuel and his fuel doesn't stink like others. I believe it's due to the Klotz oil he uses and he also puts candle scent in the fuel.

I also feel your not doing yourself any favors by flying on lines at 45' long. These planes are hard to see due to their color, they can be twitchy, and they can get in front of you real fast. Flying eights in front of you can be the best way to fly out a flight if things become to dizzy or uncontrollable. This isn't a 1/2A, it needs breathing room and shortening your lines that much is really not the norm. We fly these planes many times eyes off. If you can't fly the plane without looking at it, it's not trimmed correctly. This means that if you have eye focus on the plane, eyes off, you should be able to continue flying it at the same elevation. If you have the plane at 45 deg high, you should be able to fly consecutive loops EYES OFF. So, if you feel your in trouble, pull full elevator and the plane will just fly loops.
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Post  Yabby Sun Mar 19, 2023 12:49 am

thanks Ken! Thumbs Up great advice. Thanks. I will fly the OS first up, and I will take your advice and fly 52 foot lines straight up. I havent had a close look at how the tanks are setup other than they are hard tanks. I havent got the planes yet. A friend got them relatively cheap for me so I thought what the........ I'll give them a go. I have extremely fond memories of flying wings when I was young and thought these are built and ready to go, so......... My Enya is very broken in. lol! It flew all through my youth and recently cleaned it up, freed it up nicely and have since run it. It ran like it had only been a week since I last ran it. The enya has a crankcase nipple for pressure ( currently blocked off ) so if the tanks are a problem with suction etc. The enya might end up being the go with the CK pressure.

where my friend flies at a club in the city, all of the Combat planes ( those used for combat) are diesel, and nearly all of them are Fora 2.5CC diesels evidently. the good thing is the club allows the combat guys to fly without mufflers. I have no big expectations of the plane or myself flying it. I certainly dont intend to use it for combat. I hope it just makes a fun sport plane to fly that has more capability than those I fly now.

My friend said some of the competitive Combat guys will help me sort the wings out if I come out to the club for a day as a guest. even though its a two and a half hour drive each way ( 5 hour round trip ), if I enjoy flying the wing enough I will probably join the club and maybe fly once a month there, as I really dont think I can launch the plane from a tabletop stooge on my own. Maybe after a day out there with the wing and seeing others fly also I will get over the "its all very big and difficult.........." lol! my TD 049s are very tame and fly fine on 42/45 foot lines and on my own. Lot of water to pass under the bridge yet before I get to fly it I think. Definately going to go Spectra. 80Lb 52 foot sounds good. Need to order a new handle also, as the only handles I own are the Red Cox handles (modified) which I really like for Half A. My mate has a number of handles and he is happy for me to try them out, so that might be the go.

The smell of Diesel engines never bothered me, it was just another unique smell and part of the whole modelling thing when I was young. I can remember the smell of the Ether Laughing I like your sons idea of putting candle scent in the Diesel fuel. cheers Thumbs Up

I just realised what the tubing on the lines/clips/connectors is for!!!! What an awesome idea! that will stop the clips/connectors jagging each other and tangling up. I have always woried about that, even when flying on my own. Now I know how to fix it. I Love This Forum! Watching the combat dudes wanting to choke each other might be a good laugh Laughing

thanks for all the help and suggestions/advide. Its going to be a while before I get to try it but I will let you know how it goes once I fly it, or at least try to fly it. Smile
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:43 am

The LA will turn up and I like to use lighter pitch props for this purpose. A APC 7x4 is a good beginning start but my preference is the APC 6.3x4. I've even trimmed a bit more off of the tips. The main problem with the LA is the remote needle valve is that it won't allow you to lean the engine to it's full capacity.The rear mounted version wants the fuel to always siphon back into the tank which causes hard starting without opening the needle again. This may not be a issue for you initially. I'm pretty certain the venturi switches from the OS to the Enya. If you have a larger Enya venturi, it may just offer you a bit more power without drilling out your stock one.
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Post  Yabby Sun Mar 19, 2023 4:58 pm

Thanks Ken, I will setup the OS and check the venturis on the two and will run the prop as you have suggested. I currently have an APC 7x4 and will seek out a 6.3x4 Thumbs Up
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