Differences between Sure Start And Product Engine With Horseshoe Backplate

TDbandit wrote:In stock form theres not really much of a difference infact the 290 may edge it out a little. This is due to to the poor fit of the estes sure starts. Now if you rework em a little (IE) refit the piston, clean up the reed, check the case excreta it will wake up a little bit. I bet estes used this same cylinder on their version of the killer bee. (Bandit)

Bandit, your advice is spot one. One thing I noticed is that the 290 has a round venturi shaft with no restriction flats whereas the Sure Start does. I put drops of light machine oil in the Sure Start and now it has compression. 290 uses a brass reed, I could replace with a teflon one.

Yes, I heard that Estes apparently had folk who didn't know what they were doing, not recognizing the difference between performance and standard parts. Their so-called Killer Bee had the power of a Babe Bee. Estes is now a company of Hobbico. I don't know if they are still in Penrose, CO or moved. Difference now is Cox International and EX Cox with a few others are doing a much better job in matching pistons and cylinders, or so I gather. One is assured to get a quality product.

Nonetheless, since a friend gave me these 290 engines and I want to make a good showing of them, am now consider plane candidates. For the Sportavia 290 I'm thinking of a 30" span poster foamboard Simple Delta with elevons. The Corsair 290 deserves a suitable CL plane.

GallopingGhostler wrote:

TDbandit wrote:In stock form theres not really much of a difference infact the 290 may edge it out a little. This is due to to the poor fit of the estes sure starts. Now if you rework em a little (IE) refit the piston, clean up the reed, check the case excreta it will wake up a little bit. I bet estes used this same cylinder on their version of the killer bee. (Bandit)

Bandit, your advice is spot one. One thing I noticed is that the 290 has a round venturi shaft with no restriction flats whereas the Sure Start does. I put drops of light machine oil in the Sure Start and now it has compression. 290 uses a brass reed, I could replace with a teflon one.

Yes, I heard that Estes apparently had folk who didn't know what they were doing, not recognizing the difference between performance and standard parts. Their so-called Killer Bee had the power of a Babe Bee. Estes is now a company of Hobbico. I don't know if they are still in Penrose, CO or moved. Difference now is Cox International and EX Cox with a few others are doing a much better job in matching pistons and cylinders, or so I gather. One is assured to get a quality product.

Nonetheless, since a friend gave me these 290 engines and I want to make a good showing of them, am now consider plane candidates. For the Sportavia 290 I'm thinking of a 30" span poster foamboard Simple Delta with elevons. The Corsair 290 deserves a suitable CL plane.

Sig 1/2A stagger wing! I would look good in it. I'm fixing to build one once I'm done with my wildcat. and as far as the Sure Start back plate is concerned, I took the restrictor out of mine and drilled the snorkel which woke it up a good bit. (Bandit)

TDbandit wrote:Sig 1/2A stagger wing! I would look good in it. I'm fixing to build one once I'm done with my wildcat. and as far as the Sure Start back plate is concerned, I took the restrictor out of mine and drilled the snorkel which woke it up a good bit. (Bandit)

That Sig 1/2-A is still a classic, love the looks. A counterpart would be Walt Musiciano's hollow log Scientific Waco cabin bipe. You could take a photo of you with your headset on, color print it to scale and paste it over the painted windows. Could have your face facing looking out with your hand giving the thumbs up.

I had a Dumas 1/2-A Ercoupe at one time, it was a profile with solid wings and Cox 049 Babe Bee. Too bad I don't have plans of it, but wouldn't be hard to make another from an Ercoupe 3-view.

Got a Scientific Piper Super Cruiser hollow log kit (original), not sure what engine to put in it yet. May just template and preserve the kit. Have Walt's Building and Flying Scale Model Aircraft book with his 1/2-A P-61 twin Mustang and 1/2-A Aeronca Sedan hollow log. Those 2 are classics, too.

GallopingGhostler wrote:

TDbandit wrote:Sig 1/2A stagger wing! I would look good in it. I'm fixing to build one once I'm done with my wildcat. and as far as the Sure Start back plate is concerned, I took the restrictor out of mine and drilled the snorkel which woke it up a good bit. (Bandit)

That Sig 1/2-A is still a classic, love the looks. A counterpart would be Walt Musiciano's hollow log Scientific Waco cabin bipe. You could take a photo of you with your headset on, color print it to scale and paste it over the painted windows. Could have your face facing looking out with your hand giving the thumbs up.

I had a Dumas 1/2-A Ercoupe at one time, it was a profile with solid wings and Cox 049 Babe Bee. Too bad I don't have plans of it, but wouldn't be hard to make another from an Ercoupe 3-view.

Got a Scientific Piper Super Cruiser hollow log kit  (original), not sure what engine to put in it yet. May just template and preserve the kit. Have Walt's Building and Flying Scale Model Aircraft book with his 1/2-A P-61 twin Mustang and 1/2-A Aeronca Sedan hollow log. Those 2 are classics, too.

Speaking of Ercoupes there's a mint example at the air park where I keep my trike (Weight Shift Control) aircraft. I know the owner so I could get ya a few pics of it if ya want. (Bandit)

Bandit, I for one would really enjoy some Ercoupe pics.
When I lived in L.A. there was one based at Santa Monica.
Facinating plane. Here's a little piece of Ercoupe history.
Bob

http://airpigz.com/blog/2011/2/25/1941-air-race-porterfield-gets-whipped-by-jato-ercoupe.html

Ercoupe is a beautiful airplane, once in a while I've managed to see one at an airport, a rare sight to behold. I pulled off the jug from my son's Babe Bee field find that I cleaned up, to further remove rust from it. Lo and behold, it has only one bypass flute on one side of the cylinder, about the same size as one on the 290. It has SPI. From that with the Thimble Drome text stamped on the aluminum tank and tapered narrowing crankcase portion supporting the crankshaft, I don't know if someone could put a date it.

GallopingGhostler wrote:Ercoupe is a beautiful airplane, once in a while I've managed to see one at an airport, a rare sight to behold. I pulled off the jug from my son's Babe Bee field find that I cleaned up, to further remove rust from it. Lo and behold, it has only one bypass flute on one side of the cylinder, about the same size as one on the 290. It has SPI. From that with the Thimble Drome text stamped on the aluminum tank and tapered narrowing crankcase portion supporting the crankshaft, I don't know if someone could put a date it.

According to Martin Hepperle, they only used the Thimble Drome text & stars on the tank up until 1969, so it would be pre-1970.

Rod.

dckrsn wrote:Bandit, I for one would really enjoy some Ercoupe pics.
When I lived in L.A. there was one based at Santa Monica.
Facinating plane. Here's a little piece of Ercoupe history.
Bob

http://airpigz.com/blog/2011/2/25/1941-air-race-porterfield-gets-whipped-by-jato-ercoupe.html

Alrighty As soon as the weather improves enough I'll go down to the air park and take some pics it's freshly restored. (Bandit)

Oldenginerod wrote:

GallopingGhostler wrote:Ercoupe is a beautiful airplane, once in a while I've managed to see one at an airport, a rare sight to behold. I pulled off the jug from my son's Babe Bee field find that I cleaned up, to further remove rust from it. Lo and behold, it has only one bypass flute on one side of the cylinder, about the same size as one on the 290. It has SPI. From that with the Thimble Drome text stamped on the aluminum tank and tapered narrowing crankcase portion supporting the crankshaft, I don't know if someone could put a date it.

According to Martin Hepperle, they only used the Thimble Drome text & stars on the tank up until 1969, so it would be pre-1970.

Rod.

You're correct I'm sure its older then '69-'70, but remember even though the "Thimble-Drome" was dropped off the tank in '69, but there were a lot of 'em made and they continued to show up for a year or two after. Notice the NIB Bee below with small head needle and stepped cylinder.


I'd look on backplate and see if it says "Made in USA" if so it's c.'64-'69
If theres a slight groove on case below cylinder, if so its c. '62-'64, no groove, '59-'61

well I Just keep learning things about these engines , Mark is that info from the book or somewhere else ? Eric

It's info I've learned over the years, thanks to fourms and collector friends. Remember years are almost always approximates, if Cox ended production or changed something, it might be months before they ran out.

I think i'll put together a basic "Bee ID" chart, it would come in handy.

Mark Boesen wrote:I think i'll put together a basic "Bee ID" chart, it would come in handy.

Mark, that would be beneficial, help to identify an engine's age. Regarding gray areas, these older Coxes are far back enough that IMO plus or minus months don't hold that much significance.

Thanks to your observations, I gather that my son's Babe Bee is in the 1964 to 1969 category, as the back plate does say Made in USA. I've got another that is in a little better condition that is identical. Both have the groove in the crankcase for the snap spring no-drag starter and crankcase tapered crankshaft bearing with bump at the prop thrust plate, as in the early 1960's crankcases. Both have SPI, but only one bypass port. They are sweet running little engines.

Mark, do you know if the "bee-style" engines originally fitted to RTF planes had the text on the tank or not?

Yes, the ID chart would be very useful

Mark Boesen wrote:I think i'll put together a basic "Bee ID" chart, it would come in handy.

I'd really like to see that Mark. I have saved NUMEROUS charts on specs, formulas, etc. in my CEF folder. I need to back-up it's contents to an external drive (again) actually. It's currently over 2Gb full of fellow modelers build-photos and other useful misc. hobby info.

A chart would be awesome, and would definitely help one with identifying engines.

Here's one i cooked up, it needs work...

All this info and much more is on Marks site.



Very early Bee, with 3 piece piston. It has the fillister head screws so not the first Bee






One of the first Golden Bees, also has 3 piece piston (sent it to Kim for the race)

i wanna do one on the glowheads...but thats gonna take some time. I also think it would be neat to have a full page "flow chart" of photos of all Babe Bee changes from '56 to say early/mid 70's.

Well then, allow me to say that you are wasting precious time. Get to it. Thanks so far, it has been good.

Two of my Babe Bee's have the large knob on the needles, but they are real short. The spring bears right against the knurled knob. When were they used? Also another Bee has the same type of tapered case with the little bulge at the prop hub, but its  thicker, the whole front is a little bigger. When was that in use?
I have four Babe Bee's from when I was a kid, probably had them for 45 years. Over time some of the parts may have been mixed up. I would like to straighten them out the way they belong and freshen them up. They do all run, but some dont look to pretty.
Phil

chevyiron420 wrote:Two of my Babe Bee's have the large knob on the needles, but they are real short. The spring bears right against the knurled knob. When were they used? Also another Bee has the same type of tapered case with the little bulge at the prop hub, but its  thicker, the whole front is a little bigger. When was that in use?
I have four Babe Bee's from when I was a kid, probably had them for 45 years. Over time some of the parts may have been mixed up. I would like to straighten them out the way they belong and freshen them up. They do all run, but some dont look to pretty.
Phil

I'm not sure about the shorter needle, i've got a couple, but don't really know...guess and say Prop Rod or Mercedes Racer, I'll need to study that? The fatter case came out about '70, story goes the cutting tool used was worn, but also story that it redesigned to be more indestructible.

Yes, the short needle was used in the 1/20 scale tether cars Corvette, Buick, Chaparral to fit under the body.

Thanks For the reply Mark you do know a lot about these small engines and all references wee can pull together is very helpful. That lot I got of a bunch of difft. parts are really being a pain to fit pieces together and try and make them some what correct . ( this I will never do again ) I hope I did just get this with others that has a nice little steel plate mount that looks like what roddie had made . Eric     Well now I see the back plate is trash, bent/cracked O well I have more .