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SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

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SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:02 pm

Just bought a SIG Wonder  kit that I plan to build soon and power with my TD09 in an R/C carb and muffler setup.

https://www.google.hu/search?q=sig+wonder+kit&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwixwPrIhOnWAhXBNJoKHetiBuoQ_AUICigB&biw=1301&bih=655#imgrc=hsLRcibHhkf2MM:&spf=1507740907576



The COX TD 09 engine is the recommended smallest powerplant as per the build manual, that also says an ASP 12 is just a right size of engine....

Checking various engine data listings on the net I found that the ASP 12 weighs around 175 grams with a muffler included and delivers just a bit less power than the TD09, that only weighs 108 grams with the RC muffler mounted on it.

http://images.rcuniverse.com/forum/upfiles/360359/to45184.pdf

Anyone has  experience on how the power of the ASP 12 compares to that of the TD09, e.g. 7x4 prop rpm? The TD09 spins it near 17k with 20% nitro, as far as I tached it...

Not that I have a choice because I have only the TD09 in my fleet, but wonder if it powers the Wonder as good as the ASP 12 is said to power it..

Thank you.
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:16 pm

You really need to hook up with AmpAbuser and build the wonder for a Piped TeeDee .09

But seriously

From what I see the TeeDee .09 will be just fine if you do what we know YOU can do... weight all the wood, discard the 10Lb stuff... make new 5Lb parts...be easy on the glue... lite covering... IOW keep the weight down trying hard to beat the 26Oz spec

If high speed RC is not your forte...get one of the el cheapo hobby king delta jets to train with

I have seen a Sig Wonder with 3 ch and a Piped Picco 15.... can you say 200Mph easy?

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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  Surfer_kris on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:22 pm

I think you should go with what you like, rather than just performance. Those numbers sound really good for a .09 engine, so if it handles well (starting and throttling etc.) then just use the Cox .09. Smile

The ASP engines are good value for money but the quality tends for vary, as does the performance. Here are some of my numbers for one of my ASP .12 engines with the stock muffler, and 10% nitro:

APC 7x4 prop: 16600rpm
APC 7x4 prop (+ raised liner for a longer exhaust duration) 17200rpm

The 7x4 prop is really the largest practical load for that engine though, I use one extra head shim. It feels much more happy on smaller props. On the APC 6.5x5 prop it will do about 18400rpm on the same fuel.

Here is what they sound like (sorry for the poor video quality, the plane does pass in frame at around 0.46 Wink ):



Last edited by Surfer_kris on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  Surfer_kris on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:24 pm

balogh wrote:

Checking various engine data listings on the net I found that the ASP 12 weighs around 175 grams with a muffler included and delivers just a bit less power than the TD09, that only weighs 108 grams with the RC muffler mounted on it.

http://images.rcuniverse.com/forum/upfiles/360359/to45184.pdf

Hey, those are my old notes....! lol!
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:35 pm

Thanks Fred and Kim,

I will follow your advice and keep the weight of the SIG Wonder down...I use micro servos and balloon tank with 2 oz capacity...light Oracover etc.

I saw a few SIG Wonder flight vids on youtube and did not find them particularly quick even if all were powered by larger engines than the TD 09...at least I di not see unmanageable speeds on the vids.

The ASP 12 rpm numbers Kim quotes above are very near to my TD09 tach numbers on a 7x4 black Graupner prop, so I hope the TD 09 will really not make the Wonder a slouch.

While I am not a pro R/C pilot I have much smaller and very quick birds like the Lil' Roughneck that was designed for 010 and 020 engines but I fly it with a 049 KB replica I built from parts...and can manage it so that I have not re-kitted it after 2 years in heavy service...

More to come once I start the build.
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  Marleysky on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:39 pm

Wow, multiple replies in just minutes! I've always liked the Wonder, have the plans but haven't started cutting balsa.
I'd definitely follow Fred's advise and with your experience in building you will have an aircraft that a cox 09 will power just fine!
Everyone wants to overpower their planes in the "need for speed" Good fr them. unfortunately my eyes and thumbs are not keeping in communication well enough to follow directions at 200 mph!!
Here's a linc to a 7 year old build log on another forum:
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1503980-Sig-Wonder-Build-Log%28w-pics-vids%29/page2
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:05 pm

Thanks for the link Marleysky.

I still have not tested one of my new TD09-s that came pre-owned but unused with the strange, probably home-made double booster ports in its cylinder, and I figure the boosters should add a few 100's of rpm-s...so I may be well off with this 09 on the SIG Wonder even if muffled and running on the R/C carb that both are expected  take some rpm away from this SPI engine..



BTW I will also try to oil-seal the R/C muffler with an O-ring pulled on the TD09 cylinder...COX mufflers are not quite effective in keeping the castor away from the engine cowl because the spent oil in the exhaust gases just flows down the cylinder in the gap between the muffler neck and cylinder wall..I hope to keep the cowl at least a bit cleaner than when the engine is  un-muffled.

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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:19 pm

A quick note on micro servos

I have been trying recently to get a few guys to understand the dynamics of control surfaces... mostly for combat or stunt planes... the exercise I like to describe is hand stuck out a moving car window at around 50 mph

We have all done it...fly the hand up down... then full stall...wind pressure bangs arm on back side of window

Point is---- a lot of FORCE---- and a hand is not much more surface area than a set of flaps or an elevator

Control bell crank + push rod must be able to deflect against this force without bending/distorting

Same with servos...  a lot of micro servos are well suited for indoor slow speed

If you build a speed daemon--- you need ---metal gear higher torque sturdy servos

I know Balogh knows this relationship

Looking forward to a build thread.. my Hungarian buddy makes way cool models
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  1/2A Nut on Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:51 pm



AmpAbuser
Published on Nov 29, 2015

4th test 3.75" header rpm still in good range 20% nitro 20% oil
APC 6.5x5 / 18,980rpm / 90mph /.44hp / 1.85lbs thrust /est unloaded 115 mph.
Good prop combo recommend.




AmpAbuser
Published on Nov 29, 2015

ASP -12A APC 7x5 MACS Tuned Pipe header cut to 3.75"
20% oil / 20% nitro
3.75" header - rpm range suitable for full throttle
APC 7x5 17,118 rpm / .433hp / 313w / 81mph / 2.lbs thrust
Low speed needle allows great idle




AmpAbuser
Published on Jan 9, 2016

ASP .12A / APC 5.25 x 6.25 / Russian 1.5cc Tuned Pipe
Static 18,873 / 112 mph / est. 21.9k unloaded at 130mph
.18hp / 1 lb. static thrust / 20% nitro and oil / MACS header.


RC Plane
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:27 am

fredvon4 wrote:

I know Balogh knows this relationship

Looking forward to a build thread.. my Hungarian buddy makes way cool models

Thanks Fred..the servos I am planning to use are not the smallest micros but the ones I also use in the Cosmic Wind (Hitec HS 45HB) which is also powered by a TD09 and has comparable control surfaces in size. I agree though that a bit larger servos may be less stressed in a plane of this size and speed.

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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  MauricioB on Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:39 am

Friend !, beautiful project you are to build ... I will follow the whole step by step!
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  OVERLORD on Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:32 am

Good luck with the build Andras. This reminds me of the Conquest powered Wonder

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t6392-cox-conquest-in-action?highlight=sig+wonder+co+conquest
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:16 am

Mauricio, Overloard,

thank you for your interest...the video on the Wonder shows it really is not a toy... Smile will start the build soon
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:25 am

1/2A Nut wrote:.....

AmpAbuser
Published on Jan 9, 2016

ASP .12A  /  APC 5.25 x 6.25 / Russian 1.5cc Tuned Pipe
Static 18,873 / 112 mph / est. 21.9k unloaded at 130mph
.18hp / 1 lb. static thrust / 20% nitro and oil  / MACS header.


RC Plane


Thanks, Brad,

what is your gut feeling, with a 7x4 prop and R/C muffler on it, will the TD09 reach the rpm of the ASP12 (with a muffler and not tuned pipe)?
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  MauricioB on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:20 am

András, have you thought about the kind of servants you're going to use?
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:25 am

Hi Mauricio,

just bought these servos for the Wonder in a hobbyshop here...very cheap, some 4 USD/piece, and are said to be made in Germany (????)


http://jakomodell.hu/webaruhaz/rc-taviranyitok-szervok/szervok/dxw90-9g-micro-szervó-detail

A bit larger than what I have in my Cosmic Wind..
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  MauricioB on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:35 am

balogh wrote:Hi Mauricio,

just bought these servos for the Wonder in a hobbyshop here...very cheap, some 4 USD/piece, and are said to be made in Germany (????)


http://jakomodell.hu/webaruhaz/rc-taviranyitok-szervok/szervok/dxw90-9g-micro-szervó-detail

A bit larger than what I have in my Cosmic Wind..

If you would advise me, I would not use those servos, I have a few servos with some problems, cables that are disconnected, integrated circuits that burn, .... for that particular model, I recommend these:
You will breathe calmly in each pass to full gas !!!
http://hitecrcd.com/products/servos/micro-and-mini-servos/analog-micro-and-mini-servos/hs-82mg-standard-metal-gear-micro-servo/product
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:39 am

Thanks, Mauricio,

I also prefer Hitec servos to others but they are not always available...the number of hobbyshops selling such goods we use when building models (instead of buying them ready to fly) is just going down here.

But I still have some more time before I assemble the Wonder so I will keep searchnig for better servos...
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  MauricioB on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:50 am

balogh wrote:Thanks, Mauricio,

I also prefer Hitec servos to others but they are not always available...the number of hobbyshops selling such goods we use when building models (instead of buying them ready to fly) is just going down here.

But I still have some more time before I assemble the Wonder so I will keep searchnig for better servos...

at this stage I am learning a lot with these small models and one of the most important things that must be taken into account, (at least what I am living), is, the subject of servants .... especially when arman models Of high speed.
There is no problem in plastic gears, but, that the problem exists in their own electronics, it is even desirable to install each and every one with anti-vibration rubber sockets!
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  getback on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:08 am

Heah Andres is this a RTF or Wood Kit your going to build ? Looks Fast !! Small Cox Logo
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  MauricioB on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:42 am

Speaking of engines .... I like the Cox .09, but if you did not use that engine, there in Europe it is very possible to easily get this engine: MVVS .12 with pipe ... must be a very powerful engine, I suppose...



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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  MauricioB on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:47 am

1/2A Nut wrote:

AmpAbuser
Published on Nov 29, 2015

4th test 3.75" header rpm still in good range 20% nitro 20% oil
APC 6.5x5 / 18,980rpm / 90mph /.44hp / 1.85lbs thrust /est unloaded 115 mph.
Good prop combo recommend.




AmpAbuser
Published on Nov 29, 2015

ASP -12A  APC 7x5  MACS Tuned Pipe header cut to 3.75"
20% oil / 20% nitro
3.75" header - rpm range suitable for full throttle
APC 7x5 17,118 rpm / .433hp / 313w / 81mph / 2.lbs thrust
Low speed needle allows great idle




AmpAbuser
Published on Jan 9, 2016

ASP .12A  /  APC 5.25 x 6.25 / Russian 1.5cc Tuned Pipe
Static 18,873 / 112 mph / est. 21.9k unloaded at 130mph
.18hp / 1 lb. static thrust / 20% nitro and oil  / MACS header.


RC Plane

Heavens!! that engine flies friend! Shocked
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  Surfer_kris on Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:46 am

MauricioB wrote:Speaking of engines .... I like the Cox .09, but if you did not use that engine, there in Europe it is very possible to easily get this engine: MVVS .12 with pipe ... must be a very powerful engine, I suppose...

Yes, these engines are very nice. True ABC and twin ballbearings etc. The later version also had blue anodising on the head and prop driver. There where also several muffler options, one regular muffler, one quiet muffler and the "tuned" muffler (not a tuned pipe) that you show in the picture.

Sadly these engines are no longer made and are not easily obtained here either. Here are a few pictures:




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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  balogh on Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:10 am

getback wrote:Heah Andres is this a RTF or Wood Kit your going to build ? Looks Fast !! Small Cox Logo

Hi Eric

this is a kit that I will start building soon and will share details here.
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Re: SIG Wonder build thread - ASP12 vs COX TD09

Post  roddie on Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:41 am

I like the MVVS round exhaust-port design. It appears that the "wire-bail" is an alternate clamping method for the black muffler..?




It's similar in function to an IEC elec. plugs' safety retainer clip.. simple.. yet effective.

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