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Did I just ruin my engine with Powermaster PowerMix 25:1 Fuel? Babe_b10
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Did I just ruin my engine with Powermaster PowerMix 25:1 Fuel? Empty

Did I just ruin my engine with Powermaster PowerMix 25:1 Fuel?

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Did I just ruin my engine with Powermaster PowerMix 25:1 Fuel? Empty Did I just ruin my engine with Powermaster PowerMix 25:1 Fuel?

Post  emrlaw on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:24 pm

Hello everyone,

I just bought a Cox P40 with a .049 engine off eBay. In my excitement, I stupidly put Powermaster PowerMix 25:1 Fuel in it (https://www.amazon.com/Powermaster-Hobby-Products-Inc-PowerMix/dp/B00LMIM85Y). Did I ruin the engine? It started briefly, but I haven't been able to keep it running. Since the model is over 40 years old, I figured it would be hard to start it anyway. (It had never been run before.) I've ordered the correct fuel now, but I'm wondering if I've irreparably damaged it. Any help is greatly appreciated! Ethan
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Post  batjac on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:44 pm

Welcome to the forum!

I would doubt it. If it just ran briefly, it wasn't running long enough to trash the piston balljoint.  Probably some other reason for the short run.  Being 40 years old isn't a reason for hard starting.  Vintage Cox engines will start right up first time if the 3 requirements are all there: 1) Fuel (albeit not the good stuff, 2) Air (unobstructed venturi tube), and Spark (glow).

A few questions to help troubleshoot:
1. Did the engine turn freely before the initial start? Or did seem gummed up?
2. What battery are you using for the glow head?
3. Does it run on just the prime, or for a short while after the prime runs out?
4. How many turns open to start?  Open it the number of turns recommended in the starting manual, then open it one more to start.
5. Video of it trying to run?
6. Is there an old-timer near you that would have experience with Cox engines?
7. Lots of other stuff....


The Tutor Mark
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Did I just ruin my engine with Powermaster PowerMix 25:1 Fuel? Empty Re: Did I just ruin my engine with Powermaster PowerMix 25:1 Fuel?

Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:51 pm

Well,

Seeing it is a gasoline/oil mix, I am surprised it even started at all. Ruin it? Probably not. Worst thing I could see happening is a ruined glow plug, but I doubt that either.

You need to find a Nitro/methanol blend and at least 20 percent oil half of that being castor.

VP carries some fuels that are close to what you need, but may need added castor.

Welcome to the forum,

Ron


Last edited by Cribbs74 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:57 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post  Oldenginerod on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:53 pm

Hi Ethan.  Welcome.  Hopefully we can help you out.  As Mark said, it's very doubtful that you've damaged your engine, unless you've been doing something silly like trying for a long time to start it with an electric starter.  I'd think that maybe the reed is stuck after all these years.  As Mark asked, if it's just firing when you prime the exhaust then it's not drawing fuel, indicating a stuck reed or blocked fuel passage.

Rod.
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Post  emrlaw on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:54 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Well,

Seeing it is just gasoline/oil mix, I am surprised it even started at all. Ruin it? Probably not. Worst thing I could see happening is a ruined glow plug, but I doubt that either.

You need to find a Nitro/methanol blend and at least 20 percent oil half of that being castor.

Thanks for your help! I ordered the good stuff (I hope anyway) on eBay. Should have it next week.

Ethan
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Post  emrlaw on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:56 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:Hi Ethan.  Welcome.  Hopefully we can help you out.  As Mark said, it's very doubtful that you've damaged your engine, unless you've been doing something silly like trying for a long time to start it with an electric starter.  I'd think that maybe the reed is stuck after all these years.  As Mark asked, if it's just firing when you prime the exhaust then it's not drawing fuel, indicating a stuck reed or blocked fuel passage.

Rod.

Thanks Rod. That's a huge relief about the engine anyway. But it looks like the fuel I used etched the plastic of the fuselage pretty bad. Which is a shame because the plane was absolutely like new. Oh well...

Thanks again.

Ethan
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Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:01 pm

Another thing, if it had a mylar reed you may have melted it with the gasoline.
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Post  emrlaw on Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:08 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Another thing, if it had a mylar reed you may have melted it with the gasoline.

Well that doesn't sound good.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:38 pm

Just a possibility, not a sure thing. There is a good chance if it’s an older P-40 it would have a copper reed.

Personally I would try it agin with the proper fuel and if it doesn’t work then you will have to get into the engine. You said the gas etched the plastic so be sure you flush the entire fuel system (tank) before it eats through the plastic.

There are parts available to fix everything except the fuselage being etched. Even then you could probably find one of those too. If your end goal is to fly it then there is a good chance the marring of the plastic will be no big deal.

Ron
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Post  Ken Cook on Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:25 am

Ethan, at the age that it is, it more than likely needs a thorough cleaning. It certainly won't do any harm trying the engine once you obtain the proper fuel. It's always worth a shot and I have had 40-50 year old engines work like they shouldn't. If it was put away years back with even the slightest traces of fuel, it causes oxidation inside. I use a old toothbrush and hot soapy water to scrub the parts followed by a good rinse. Ron mentioned the copper reed, these tend to get green goo around them which doesn't allow for proper operation. The reed is as thin as paper and easily damaged. Use caution when placing the circlip back in that retains it making certain it's fully seated. I do this by carefully using a small screw driver and rotating it within the groove. Once disassembled, it only makes sense to replace the rubber o-ring between tank and tank back. The gasket between the front portion of the case and the tank will probably also be ruined upon taking it apart.
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Post  emrlaw on Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:43 am

Thanks for all your help everyone! I'm going to take the engine apart and give it a good cleaning. I'm hoping to have new fuel next week. I'll let you know how it all goes. Thanks again, I really appreciate it. Ethan
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Post  pkrankow on Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:22 pm

Nobody mentioned air leaks. With the cleaning you may need new gaskets and fuel line.

Air in the wrong place will stop an enging from drawing fuel properly.

Phil
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Post  Cribbs74 on Wed Apr 29, 2020 8:21 pm

Hey guys, the engine starting is not the problem. He used 25:1 gasoline/oil mix designed for giant scale engines, also weedeaters, chainsaws etc.
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Post  davidll1984 on Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:22 pm

is p40 use plastic tank ?if so tank is sur damage gasoline melt plastic hope tank is ok
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Post  emrlaw on Thu Apr 30, 2020 11:07 am

davidll1984 wrote:is p40 use plastic tank ?if so tank is sur damage gasoline melt plastic hope tank is ok

I hadn't even thought of that. I think it's metal, but I'll check. Thanks!
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Post  Oldenginerod on Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:54 pm

emrlaw wrote:
davidll1984 wrote:is p40 use plastic tank ?if so tank is sur damage gasoline melt plastic hope tank is ok

I hadn't even thought of that. I think it's metal, but I'll check. Thanks!

I think the P-40 usually had just a standard Babe Bee tank. Gasoline shouldn't affect it.
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Post  emrlaw on Fri May 01, 2020 8:17 pm

Well, I got new fuel and I think I flushed out all of the old stuff. But I still can't get it started. Here's a video of my efforts: https://app.box.com/s/fcx4tn2188te1cfi6g8jjjuu88str2m5 (Hopefully the link works) The engine ran for about 3 seconds originally, so I think longer than just the prime. Since then, it will occasionally run for a millisecond, which I guess is just the prime. Anyway, if anybody has any advice, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! Ethan
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Post  pkrankow on Fri May 01, 2020 8:57 pm

3 seconds could be on prime. A full second is normal.

Hanging a drop of fuel on the closed exhaust port via surface tension is an appropriate amount of prime. Squirting fuel into the open exhaust port is an unknown state of prime, probably flooded.

Drain the tank and practice starting on prime till you can get a bark in 1 to 3 tries every time you reprime. Then close the needle gently, fill the tank, open the needle the indicated number of turns per the instructions which can be found here

https://www.coxengineforum.com/h24-instruction-sheets

Best luck.

Phil
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Post  emrlaw on Fri May 01, 2020 9:08 pm

pkrankow wrote:3 seconds could be on prime.  A full second is normal.

Hanging a drop of fuel on the closed exhaust port via surface tension is an appropriate amount of prime.  Squirting fuel into the open exhaust port is an unknown state of prime, probably flooded.

Drain the tank and practice starting on prime till you can get a bark in 1 to 3 tries every time you reprime.  Then close the needle gently, fill the tank, open the needle the indicated number of turns per the instructions which can be found here

https://www.coxengineforum.com/h24-instruction-sheets

Best luck.

Phil

Thanks Phil. I'll give it a try tomorrow.

Ethan
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Post  Dave P. on Fri May 01, 2020 9:22 pm

If it barks, your head is still good.  If it has compression, you didn't hurt the cylinder.  I'm guessing your reed, needle seat and fuel line are plugged with some gunk.  Not at all out of line for their age.  You'll probably have to pull the engine out and give it a good cleaning.  I wouldn't completely disassemble the whole engine though.  Just pull and disassemble the tank and reed like Ken said.  A good cleaning, a new case gasket, fuel pickup tube and venturi gasket (the tiny O ring between the tank tube and backplate) will probably do the trick.
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Post  944_Jim on Sat May 02, 2020 9:09 am

And, test the engine while it is out of the model. A test stand can be as simple as a block of wood c-clamped to an outdoor table. You will find it easier to learn the engine if you aren't worried about damaging the model during starting...or trying to hold it once started.
I'm not intimately familiar with the model, but it may be wise to use the engine in a simple corrugated plastic trainer to learn the ropes. Then transfer the engine back into your prize model. No finishing skills will be needed for the Manwin trainer.
http://www.balsabeavers.com/information/plans/manwin.pdf
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Post  emrlaw on Sun May 03, 2020 5:30 pm

Thanks again everyone for your help. I've ordered some parts and plan on cleaning the engine as soon as they get here. I've also mounted it on a block, which should really make it easier to start it. Thanks again.

Ethan
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