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Post  NEW222 Thu Nov 04, 2021 7:31 pm

Well, I had received one engine in the mail today from one of the latest contests. A Norvel AME .049, and as an added bonus, a spare glow plug. Truly a beautiful work of art in itself. Now, I just have to pull up my game to get an airplane ready for it. I do have one here somewhere from way back when, a White Lightning, I believe. I know it is all doped and such, but just needs a color coat. I had previously drilled it out for a TD, but from my understanding these will bolt right up. So when I get to it, I will probably throw my old TD aboard for a flight or two to get it trimmed, then swap out for the Norvel. But with the winter approaching, my club s no longer flying this year, so will have to wait till spring......
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Post  getback Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:03 am

Clapping Clapping Clapping Happy Boy !! sunny sunny
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Post  rsv1cox Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:17 am

Don't you dare run that beautiful new in the box engine Chancey!!! Smile Smile Smile Smile

I eagerly wait to see it in the nose of some airplane powering it through the sky.

Bob
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Post  Surfer_kris Fri Nov 05, 2021 8:38 am

That's a nice engine! Smile

The stock glow plugs on these are a little "cold" so you might want to use the replacement head instead.
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Post  NEW222 Fri Nov 05, 2021 12:29 pm

Thanks Kris. Something to look into as I did not know they made different heads. I thought they were all the same.
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Post  fredvon4 Fri Nov 05, 2021 1:08 pm

Please review all the CEF posts on care and feeding a Norvel, especially proper starting for first time procedures Hint Rusty

The included instructions to oil and spin are WRONG!

Do not slowly turn that engine over cold it will pinch very tightly at TDC and then stretch the rod when you try to force it with the prop
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Post  Ken Cook Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:38 pm

The Norvel and the Cox TD aren't exactly a direct swap. The Norvel has a wider case. The bolt pattern is the same, but the case width and nose lengths are different. Norvel has 3 different case lengths.
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Post  Yabby Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:48 pm

That is a beautiful looking engine, I had never really looked at a Norvel engine before, even in photos, ive certainly never seen a real one. Id have it in a plane and be up the road at the nearest school/park/etc. and flying it as soon as I could. Lol. I wouldnt be worrying about closed clubs or waiting till your spring. lol! But maybe thats why I have to take ritalin still at 60. HaHaHa.

Love that engine, now I think when the postal services start again delivering to Australia, I might have a look and watch and see if I can buy a Norvel. Something different to my 99.9% Cox collection. 1 OS LA 2.5cc still in its box for two years brand new. HaHaHA.

cheers sunny

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Post  NEW222 Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:54 pm

Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone. And thanks to Fred, I located what I believe that he was referring to with Rusty's thread. I will post a link here for anyone else that may want to have a read of it.

Rustys Norvel Thread
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Post  fredvon4 Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:22 am

I fear my lazy cryptic post might lead folks to buy into the oil and drill motor spin of new NV engines. If they just read the initial post by Rusty

My intent was to caution NOT to use that method as it unnecessarily shortens the life of the Cyl/Piston/rod. IMO

The link provided was to Rusty's original post about his new Norvel. Later in other threads we hashed out WHY the included instructions suggested the drill motor method.

Background, for years SIG and very few others sold these engines. The rate of return from dissatisfied customers was very high; Citing they "could not get the engine to start". Of course most of the engines were tested by SIG and they were fine. Norvel modified the user instruction to include the oil and drill motor spin with head removed, to reduce the Tight Pinch at TDC. And of course that method does work...at a cost.

Alternative initial starting methods were discussed and tried by various members and mostly we agreed that adding head shims OR a lower compression Cox 049 head helped and preheating the head with hair dryer or heat gun greatly helped. And we noticed that it only took two or three short runs of rich to lean and rich was all that was needed to sufficiently mate the rotating components for much easier starting with proper head.

Later Ken cook noted that some times the crank shaft to body clearance was too tight and heat cause stoppage and perhaps galling on the crank shaft bearing surface. Easy to fix before initial running or after the problem happened. Chuck the crank in a drill or drill press and lightly polish the bearing surface with crocus cloth or 400~800 grit oiled sandpaper.

There are several threads discussing the various methods of adding a fine thread NVA to help with pressure fuel system like bladders
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Post  Surfer_kris Sat Nov 06, 2021 6:28 am

fredvon4 wrote:
The included instructions to oil and spin are WRONG!

I think that note was only added by one of the american importers, and it was only done on the later revlite models. I've never seen that note with any of my engines that came NIB. And, yes, the note is absolutely wrong...

Just treat the engine as a high performance ABC engine and you'll be fine. I.e. you need to pre-heat the cylinder before the first few starts, and sometimes also in cold weather even after the engine has been run-in.

There is a long thread on 1/2A forum on RCU about the Norvel engines, and their history: https://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/1-2-1-8-airplanes-70/3747976-norvel-engine-faq.html
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Post  fredvon4 Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:44 am

Here is a photo of instruction sheet for a .049 AERO I bought around 2012

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Post  rsv1cox Sat Nov 06, 2021 9:58 am

Thought I gave up all my Norvels. Forgot this one. Another option for Chancey. Sailplane it.

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Post  NEW222 Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:35 am

I really like the sailplane idea. That is one that had honestly not crossed my mind. I immediately thought of control line for some reason. I do have a sailplane, but it is gonna remain a bungee start as it was built a LONG time ago and is not finished for nitro proof. I could I guess do such, but I just like it as it is. However, I may be able to find another glider somewhere, which is definately interesting. One would think it would make for a gentle flyer. Again, thanks for the idea.
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Post  NEW222 Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:36 am

Thank you again Fred for your well written post and picture. It is greatly appreciated.
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Post  944_Jim Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:47 am

Chancey,
I love my Norvels. You will too! Please pay attention to the break-in suggestions as posted...not the instruction sheet.

I also recommend bench break-in. This will help you learn the engine, as well as polishing the coatings through operation.I seem to remember my .074s got about a quart each before I installed them. Mine are from the Revlite times, so the first several runs had grey slobber oil all over the stand. In time, the coatings will stop polishing/sloughing off. I'd hate to see a White Lightning get slobbering grey...especially if yours is, well, white.

Last piece I learned (and the one that was the biggest game-changer for me)...the heads are anodized and stay pretty for a long time. The anodizing is not conductive, so using a Cox glow plug clip is an excersize in frustration. The minute I switched to the glow plug "grabber" commonly used in RC, the faster and easier starting the engine becomes. Even the older black 1/2A clip does a better job of clawing in and connecting between fins, which leads to better, hotter, more consistent glow. And ensure you are providing a solid 1.5 volts...not NiCad 1.2 volts. My old four D-cell battery pack had enough oomph to supply the required amps. Go back to the best glow plug clip thread for pics.

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t15412-solvedmost-efficent-glowhead-clip-for-norvel-engine#203779

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Post  944_Jim Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:50 pm

Oh, one last recommendation...lots of short running at two to three minutes each. Let it get hot...let it get cold. Wash, rinse, repeat. As you learn the engine, and it gets easier to start, increase your run times.

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Post  NEW222 Sat Nov 06, 2021 12:57 pm

Thank you Jim for the heads up and recommendation.
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Post  layback209 Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:02 pm

Woohoo!!! Your going to love that motor!!! It's an 0.049 too. Super cool.   The big mig series appeared to be a sort of ceramic coated aluminum cylinders and behave like a standard tapered high performance abc rc car engine (or novarossi).  As others mensioned above. You need to heat this bad boy up to at least 180deg f, then crank it up.  At 180f the thermol expansion releases the taper fit, I.e. it moves higher up the cylinder.  Just keep it above 180f for run in and you will be ok.  I suggest a lazer sensor to help, but if you don't have one no biggie.  Your at operating temp when, a small bead of water flashes off the cooling head in 1-2 seconds.  You will also notice that the motor turns over significany more freely.  

I'd suggest keeping the temp between 180 to 230 for break in. Lean and ritchen for a few tanks. I.e. Lean for 30sec to a min till you hear it change from 4 stroke to 2 stroke tone then ritchen to cool, lean then ritchen, repeat. After about 12oz it started to run in very nicely.

Sig champion 15% nitro 20% oil ran beautifully in mine. Honestly no need for higher nitrocontent I.e. 25%nitro 1/
2a fuel.  And I was running at 1km above sea level too.

Here is a break in video I made to show the approach I took. As mensioned above start with 2 to three head shims to lower compression.  Once broken in my performed well with one and 15% nitro. The more you run them the better they get.

Hope you find this helpful. Happy flying.

https://youtu.be/o_-APMcmb3c

https://youtu.be/o_-APMcmb3c


Last edited by layback209 on Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  layback209 Sat Nov 06, 2021 10:39 pm

Here is Rusty's run in video as well.

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Post  Surfer_kris Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:49 am

layback209 wrote: These are a sort of ceramic coated aluminum cylinders   

No, the engine in post #1 is the earlier ABN engine type.
The ceramic coating was developed later and was referred to as "Revlite" technology.
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:37 am

One thing to provide certainty as to what you have is to remove the glow plug and determine what type of porting your Norvel really has. It was very common for Norvel to place the engine into the incorrect box. The Big Mig has 5 small ports cut into the cylinder. The AME has 3 large ports. The Big Mig in my opinion is far easier to run and use and offers multiple useage for the purchaser. The AME can be a bit more fickle to run as it likes even slightly more rpm's and smaller props usually. The biggest problem I've encountered with the AME is the staked wrist pin. I've had this happen to multiple engines where the staking let loose and the wrist pin slides into the port of the cylinder. It destroys the engine and breaks or bends the rod. This doesn't happen on the Big Mig because the wrist pin doesn't line up with the holes. The AP Wasp used a circlip for wrist pin retention and I really had high hopes for using it. It's turd like performance however destined it to the shelf.
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Post  layback209 Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:52 am

Surfer_kris wrote:
layback209 wrote: These are a sort of ceramic coated aluminum cylinders   

No, the engine in post #1 is the earlier ABN engine type.
The ceramic coating was developed later and was referred to as "Revlite" technology.

Thanks for the correction is the n "nikasil" cylinder lined?

If so that's pretty darn cool.
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Post  Surfer_kris Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:06 am

The N in ABN stands for nickel, or actually I think it is AAN, i.e. aluminium cylinder coated with nickel. This coating is both on the inside and outside of the cylinder, hence the AAN version has a shiny outside compared to the duller looking revlite (the revlite model also has a larger diameter on the cooling fins).

The very early ones from Norvel/Steels where ABC, i.e. a brass liner coated with chrome on the inside only. Here is a little time span from left to right (not complete though, the engine in post #1 would sit somewhere as the second engine from the left):

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