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Post  balogh Mon May 01, 2023 2:52 am

Because of my concerns that damage may be inflicted to my old stock COX cylinders, I do not use devarnisher brush on them.

Instead I follow my DIY process as follows:


Remove cylinder.

Soak a cotton earbud in cold grease remover fluid used in the kitchen and swipe the cylinder wall with the bud multiple times until earbud turns brown.
Repeat until last bud remains white and cylinder is visibly clean. This won't take more than 2 buds.

Wrap next earbud in a piece of aluminum cooking foil and move it around the cylinder. Aluminum will not scratch cylinder but will remove the remainder of varnish.

Cylinder devarnishing -again 16829210

Cylinder devarnishing -again 16829212


Wash cylinder thoroughly in water or some solvent  to remove grease remover and varnish fragments even from transfer ports, then oil and put it back on engine. Check if piston movement is easier. Old stock cylinders may be taper bore that shows some normal resistance near the TDC, but they also get stuck in varnish sooner...so some result of devarnishing will surely be tangible.

I just did this devarnishing with success on a COX049 that had too much varnish on its cylinder, most likely due to my flights in early spring with high relative humidity in our otherwise continental climate in Hungary.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon May 01, 2023 4:16 am

Interesting comments on the bottle:
Bottle in Húngaro (Hungarian) wrote:WELL DONE HIDEG ZSÍROLDÓ Hideg Zsíroldó Fokozott hatékonyságú hideg zsíroldó, amely gyorsan hat, tüzhelyek, sütó tepsik, és rozsdamentes acéledények tisztitására.
WELL DONE COLD DEGREASER Highly effective cold degreaser that acts quickly to clean stoves, baking trays and stainless steel utensils.
FIGYELEM gyermekektől tartsa távol!
ATTENTION keep away from children!
Here in US we may have a similar product, maybe the same, just different name. Maybe EASY OFF?
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Post  balogh Mon May 01, 2023 6:46 am

Wow, what an exact translation, George!

I would be surprised if there were no substitute product in the US..
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 01, 2023 7:08 am

balogh wrote:Wow, what an exact translation, George!

I would be surprised if there were no substitute product in the US..

Speaking of translations. From the May issue of Air Classics:

Cylinder devarnishing -again Scan_212

Air Classics didn't offer a translation, perhaps you can help?

Cylinder devarnishing -again P1015330
Cylinder devarnishing -again P1015332
Cylinder devarnishing -again P1015331

Thanks - Bob
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Post  balogh Mon May 01, 2023 7:26 am

Bob,

The Hungarian advertisement must come from the communist 1950-s, ( see also the red star flag in the background) saying: Young laborers, join the circles of Hungarian flying association to study aviation...in the Stalinist 50-s peasants and workers were encouraged to occupy positions that beforehand only the rich bourgeois citizens were priviliged to pursue...as if politically entitling illiterates to lead brain surgery operations...


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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 01, 2023 7:36 am

balogh wrote:Bob,

The Hungarian advertisement must come from the communist 1950-s, saying: Young laborers, join the circles of Hungarian flying association to study aviation...in the Stalinist 50-s peasants and workers were encouraged to occupy positions that beforehand only the rich bourgeois citizens were priviliged to pursue...as if politically entitling illiterates to lead brain surgery operations...

Thanks Andras, I would imagine that your doctor father was a leading resistant in those troubling times. Unfortunately we have a little blond headed Stalin presently in power gleefully killing women and children in Ukraine while the world looks on.
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Post  balogh Mon May 01, 2023 7:43 am

Definitely, Bob, my father was an adamant opponent of communist regime,  often reported by his political adversaries to the police in the 70-s for listening to the banned Radio Free Europe broadcast from Munich Germany, while taking a nap after lunch with windows wide open...

What goes around, comes around though...the blondie in Moscow with world conquest ambitions has new supporters by the leading party of the present Hungarian government who happen to have gladly said farewell to occuppying Russian troops 33 years ago as Young Democrats...they have morphed into the most  obnoxious, pro-putin crooks by today in the EU.
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Post  Levent Suberk Mon May 01, 2023 9:06 am

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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon May 01, 2023 11:32 am

Interesting, it is available in US, $28 for 3 bottles:
https://www.amazon.com/Well-Done-St-Moritz-Cleaner-750Ml/dp/B01FRPJRK6
Cylinder devarnishing -again 41x7ma10

I think you may be onto something new, András, a better way to do than traditional steel wool specified in the Cox engine instructions. Thumbs Up
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 01, 2023 12:40 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:Interesting comments on the bottle:
Bottle in Húngaro (Hungarian) wrote:WELL DONE HIDEG ZSÍROLDÓ Hideg Zsíroldó Fokozott hatékonyságú hideg zsíroldó, amely gyorsan hat, tüzhelyek, sütó tepsik, és rozsdamentes acéledények tisztitására.
WELL DONE COLD DEGREASER Highly effective cold degreaser that acts quickly to clean stoves, baking trays and stainless steel utensils.
FIGYELEM gyermekektől tartsa távol!
ATTENTION keep away from children!
Here in US we may have a similar product, maybe the same, just different name. Maybe EASY OFF?

I have used Easy-Off oven cleaner to remove paint from plastic parts, wings etc.. It's highly caustic, does a good job but make a mess. I don't think I woud use it on engines, but if it's the same ingredient that is in the "Well -Done" product I would be very careful of it although Andras has had good results.
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Post  gkamysz Mon May 01, 2023 12:49 pm

Well Done is 20-25% KOH (potassium hydroxide) plus surfactants. Zep Oven Cleaner is cheap and contains less KOH, but should be effective. There are probably others. Many oven/grill cleaners don't use KOH anymore. It looks like Easy-Off Heavy Duty uses lye and other stuff.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon May 01, 2023 12:57 pm

Thanks for the clarification, @gkamysz.
rsv1cox wrote:I have used Easy-Off oven cleaner to remove paint from plastic parts, wings etc..  It's highly caustic, does a good job but make a mess.  I don't think I woud use it on engines, but if it's the same ingredient that is in the "Well -Done" product I would be very careful of it although Andras has had good results.  
Of course, Bob, definitely protective gloves required, but everything we do with model engines is risk assessed. (Heat, boiling chemical bathes, caustic and cancer suspecting respiratory unsafe solvents, dangerous to human flesh rotating props, and etc.)

But properly managed, the results are outstanding. Wink But then, we were permitted to learn risk assessment growing up (no car seat belts, bike helmets, knee pads, elbow pads, back braces, goggles, etc. Laughing ).
Brad Upton, YT DryBar Comedy Channel wrote:When we were growing up, we played with guns, knives, fireworks. There were no dumb kids. You know why? They never made it!

But we survived. Smile
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Post  roddie Mon May 01, 2023 1:05 pm

I aspire to you Andras.. the respect and care that you give your Cox engines.
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Post  balogh Mon May 01, 2023 1:30 pm

Bob, Levent, Roddie, George, Greg and all, thank you. This is a rather aggressive degreaser indeed, without rubber gloves your finger immediately feels like slippery if in contact with it, indicating that it dissolves human fat too.

So precaution is recommended, the same as with nitro in our fuel.

But it is fast and effective. Clean the cylinder rapidly, do not leave it on the steel surface too long because it may cause some iron pick-up (not that I have experienced any visible corrosion on the cylinder). But all in all it is much more cylinder friendly than any fine steel wool or devarnisher brush that are known to scratch and hone the cylinder when scraping off the varnish.
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 01, 2023 2:16 pm

"When we were growing up, we played with guns, knives, fireworks. There were no dumb kids. You know why? They never made it."

Smile Smile I resemble that remark. I was not careful then, I'm not careful now. I take risks to same time. Always have. Only recently have I begun to wear gloves/resperator masks then infrequently. Not proud of it, just the way I am. I have been lucky surviving events that would have killed many.

I have lived my allotted three score and ten - plus more than a few. I could go tomorrow without regret. Perhaps even looking forward to it.

The 85 and counting - Bob
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Post  balogh Mon May 01, 2023 2:21 pm

C'mon Bob the stunts you do when foresting and gardening with your power tools and fancy vehicles are just amazing, and you are not reckless or irresponsible but a seasoned jack of all trades...


Last edited by balogh on Mon May 01, 2023 2:40 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon May 01, 2023 2:24 pm

Bob, do you mean? Affraid or WOW!


balogh wrote:But it is fast and effective. Clean the cylinder rapidly, do not leave it on the steel surface too long because it may cause some iron pick-up (not that I have experienced any visible corrosion on the cylinder). But all in all it is much more cylinder friendly than any fine steel wool or devarnisher brush that are known to scratch and hone the cylinder when scraping off the varnish.
András, thus far, your methodology has merit, especially since our little Cox engines, parts are in short supply and some are no longer available except by cannibalizing other engines.

It also may explain why I needed to replace my piston and cylinder in my 1978 R/C Bee after several seasons of flight. Because I was flying more often, I was using the then highly recommended fine steel wool as a Castor varnish scrubber. But, as you point out, it removes a tiny amount of metal with a hone finish that is repolished with successive flights. So, over time, I am losing compression due to wear and tear done by the steel wool.

However, back until the late 1970's, I was able to buy Cox engine parts in the toy/hobby section of department stores such as Sears and Montgomery Ward. Then, there were more hobby stores so one did not have to do mail order. I just went to the shelf, pulled what I needed, then pay.

But now, even our favored suppliers, Cox International and Ex Model Engines are either out of stock or have a very short supply of cylinders with pistons, sometimes glow heads.

So, using other methods such as yours to extend the longevity of these engines is greatly welcomed. Thumbs Up
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Post  balogh Mon May 01, 2023 2:37 pm

George, indeed, even if moved by very careful  circular rotations, the brush will remove precious metal from the cylinder of an engine that was once made to match a tolerance of seven per million of an inch..the scratches and micro grooves inflicted will force further material loss when the engine is restarted and the mating surfaces embed again....so it will inevitably  cost you compression...the chemical removal, instead,  leaves the well run in surfaces intact...with a good supply of replacements back in the day, it was certainly not an issue. But - especially for international COX users far from the COX motherland and Bernie and Matt,  -  you think twice before any irreversible action is done on your engine...
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 01, 2023 2:58 pm

If you go back here in the Cox archives, perhaps around 2014 when I joined you would find a respected member that advocated never removing the built up varnish in any cylinder.  "There to maintain compression".  I remember it because it was at odds at everything that I had ever learned regarding these engines.  It did not get much traction as I remember.  

In my prime, I "devarnished" many an Enya/Cox, etc. etc. engine then ran them.  Some I tached, most I didn't.  I didn't notice a difference.  Another member offered that it just take a few runs to rebuild that varnish.  Maybe, maybe not.  

It's fun anyway.  I enjoyed it.

The 660 engines and counting - Bob  

There I go again imitating Mark..........
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon May 01, 2023 3:45 pm

rsv1cox wrote:If you go back here in the Cox archives, perhaps around 2014 when I joined you would find a respected member that advocated never removing the built up varnish in any cylinder.  "There to maintain compression".  I remember it because it was at odds at everything that I had ever learned regarding these engines.  It did not get much traction as I remember.
This was more or less true of the older engines of greater displacement than our Coxes, for example, the Fox .35's, K&B Torpedo .35's, Testor .35 Red Heads, and etc. Those were large enough that the Castor build up wouldn't freeze the pistons in their cylinders, they just kept ticking over. The cylinder to piston fit that grew over time was replaced with the Castor glazing.

Those engines, similar to the automobile engines prior to the mid or so 1970's, honing was a lot more coarse, tolerances weren't as precise. They took longer to break in. It was unusual to spend up to an hour of accumulated time to break in an engine by short heat cycling runs. I use a 1 ounce tank to do those, seems about the right size to heat cycle these older engines. Am told that over time, the honed off soft steel chips from the cylinder walls gets infused into the softer iron sides of the piston, helping to harden it.

At least in my limited experiences with the older Enya's, Testor McCoy's, 20 to 30, may be 40 minutes of short cycling, they'd be broke in enough to do the rest in flight. Again, I am sort of a late comer to these older style engines, but have found them to be pleasurable in performing.

However, the Cox and other similar half-A engines, the cylinder to piston fit was much more precise to the point where that the glazing would interfere with the engine's efficiency. I would fly for a couple weeks, almost daily. Then after a couple weeks, noticed that RPM's weren't as sparkling as they were before. I'd disassemble the engine, scrub off the varnish, and it was back to running like new again.

So, there was some justification to that statement, it just didn't apply in all cases. If you did scrub the varnish from a well worn .35 engine, then you might have had an unpleasant surprise that it had not much compression.

This is why @Ken Cook on occasion showed a well Castor baked Fox .35 Stunt and commented this is what a Fox engine should look like. Laughing

Again, I'm no expert but a learner, just like most everyone else.
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 01, 2023 3:50 pm

balogh wrote:C'mon Bob the stunts you do when foresting and gardening with your power tools and fancy vehicles are just amazing, and you are not reckless or irresponsible but a seasoned jack of all trades...

Andras, true story that sends chills when I think of it and it just happened yesterday. I could have lost everything. All my firearms, all my models and engines plus a lifetime of memories. That just to save time.

I put a final gas line filter in my RX-7 splicing it just ahead of the fuel rail (fuel injection) in the engine compartment. New fuel tubing that fit perfectly on the metal line reaching down about an inch and a half. Tight fit and I couldn't pull it off but I didn't have a clamp to secure it. That was about three weeks ago. I have ran it many times since, in the garage and out.

Cylinder devarnishing -again P1015333

Yesterday I installed a new capacitor that has an effect on the oil pressure gauge and I wanted to check it out. Ran the engine up to operating temperature and shut it down. Started cleaning off the pollen on the car when I heard a loud pop. Opened the hood and the gas line under pressure had blown off spraying gas over the engine. Shut down so the pressure was spent. But, what would have happened when I was running it just a minute before. Gas being pumped uninterupted all over a hot engine in the garage attached to the house. Chills and entirely my fault. As I say, I have been lucky throughout my life.

But, there is hope. There is this 30/40' tall dead pine tree in the back yard that I dearly want to take down. But I can't gauge which way it will fall. A first for me. It goes straight up, but it curls in the middle and could fall in any direction and I don't want to be at it's base with a chain saw when it goes. So, I wedged it in the way I think it will fall and back cut it hoping that nature will take it's course, but it hasn't and I'm itching to get out there. But, so far I haven't. Hense the typing and no Tom Cat adventure for me. Smile

Yesterday was kinda dull around here. Today is better................
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon May 01, 2023 4:18 pm

rsv1cox wrote:Yesterday I installed a new capacitor that has an effect on the oil pressure gauge and I wanted to check it out.  Ran the engine up to operating temperature and shut it down.  Started cleaning off the pollen on the car when I heard a loud pop.  Opened the hood and the gas line under pressure had blown off spraying gas over the engine.  Shut down so the pressure was spent.  But, what would have happened when I was running it just a minute before.  Gas being pumped uninterrupted all over a hot engine in the garage attached to the house.  Chills and entirely my fault.  As I say, I have been lucky throughout my life.
House across the street and catercorner from us suffered a fire a month ago, appears fire started in the garage. Fire department put out the fire, but it damaged it badly enough that the occupants had to vacate, since is unoccupied. One can see where a fireman used a chain saw to cut through the garage door to spray. First thing that came to mind, were they recharging high energy tool batteries (like used in our R/C planes)?

rsv1cox wrote:But, there is hope.  There is this 30/40' tall dead pine tree in the back yard that I dearly want to take down.  But I can't gauge which way it will fall.  A first for me.  It goes straight up, but it curls in the middle and could fall in any direction and I don't want to be at it's base with a chain saw when it goes.  So, I wedged it in the way I think it will fall and back cut it hoping that nature will take it's course, but it hasn't and I'm itching to get out there.  But, so far I haven't. Hence the typing and no Tom Cat adventure for me.  Smile

lol!
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 01, 2023 4:42 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:
rsv1cox wrote:Yesterday I installed a new capacitor that has an effect on the oil pressure gauge and I wanted to check it out.  Ran the engine up to operating temperature and shut it down.  Started cleaning off the pollen on the car when I heard a loud pop.  Opened the hood and the gas line under pressure had blown off spraying gas over the engine.  Shut down so the pressure was spent.  But, what would have happened when I was running it just a minute before.  Gas being pumped uninterrupted all over a hot engine in the garage attached to the house.  Chills and entirely my fault.  As I say, I have been lucky throughout my life.
House across the street and catercorner from us suffered a fire a month ago, appears fire started in the garage. Fire department put out the fire, but it damaged it badly enough that the occupants had to vacate, since is unoccupied. One can see where a fireman used a chain saw to cut through the garage door to spray. First thing that came to mind, were they recharging high energy tool batteries (like used in our R/C planes)?

rsv1cox wrote:But, there is hope.  There is this 30/40' tall dead pine tree in the back yard that I dearly want to take down.  But I can't gauge which way it will fall.  A first for me.  It goes straight up, but it curls in the middle and could fall in any direction and I don't want to be at it's base with a chain saw when it goes.  So, I wedged it in the way I think it will fall and back cut it hoping that nature will take it's course, but it hasn't and I'm itching to get out there.  But, so far I haven't. Hence the typing and no Tom Cat adventure for me.  Smile

lol!

Not without precident:

DETROIT – Ford is expanding a recall of SUVs and telling owners to park them outside after a series of engine fires that can happen even when the ignition switches are off.

The company also announced Friday that it's recalling another 100,000 SUVs in the U.S. for a different problem that also causes engine fires.

In May, Ford recalled about 39,000 Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator large SUVs in the U.S. and told owners to park them outdoors and away from buildings. On Friday the company expanded that recall to cover more than 66,000 vehicles from the 2021 model year after getting reports of five more fires.
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Post  944_Jim Mon May 01, 2023 4:44 pm

Want, no chatter about that Me210? Thanks for bringing attention to a neat-looking twin!
I spy another twin in my future. Now off to Outerzone...
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 01, 2023 4:49 pm

944_Jim wrote:Want, no chatter about that Me210? Thanks for bringing attention to a neat-looking twin!
I spy another twin in my future. Now off to Outerzone...

Thanks for bringing us back to the subject at hand Jim. That is a great article as are all in Air Classics. I love the twins too. Maybe another build-off. Smile
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