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"Cherry Bomb" .051 engine

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Post  ian1954 Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:16 pm

Picture this - an engine comes into my possession - I can't wait to run it and then - I find that I haven't got a suitable propeller.

I become more annoyed than Mr. Annoyed was ever annoyed! Mad

I have many propellers - I search through my boxes, drawers, shelves ....... what should be a simple job turns into a time consuming propeller hunt. During this I separated my IC engine props from the electrickery jobbies. I was going to catalogue them but patience is a virtue that I do not possess.

Which engine is this likely to be? More_p10

Which engine is this likely to be? More_p11


After many years of hoarding equipment, I discover that I need to buy some more propellers. Easier said than done!

I trawled the interweb only to find that advertisers didn't have the size I wanted in stock even though they were advertising them as available. Cancelled orders, checking for refunds ...............Grrrrr!!!! Doh!

I first of all just wanted a propeller to run it in with - after this performance, I decided to get the range of suitables.


So here they are

A four blade 13x13

Which engine is this likely to be? Props_10

A 16x12, 15x12 and a 14x14

Which engine is this likely to be? Props_11


Which engine is this likely to be? Props_12

As it has taken me a long time to get to this position, I will delay posting pictures of the engine until I have had some input.

Bearing in mind the size of the propellers - What do you think the engine could be?

Is it a glow, petrol or diesel?

2 stroke, 4 stroke?

What size is it?

There may be another picture later today Smoking but then again ........ no response, no picture Devil
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Post  Marleysky Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:43 pm

Awww, takes the fun out of it,  if you get all scientific on us. That's gotta make us think and stuff.
The steep Pitch(s) you've selected are....off the chart!!  I'm guessing it might be 1.20 Size Diesel.
as already mentioned, following the propeller size recommendations made by your engine manufacturer should always be your first point of reference. But there are generally recognised prop size ranges for each engine size and these are the sizes to choose if you're unsure about propeller selection.
The following propeller size chart (© Top Flight, reproduced with permission) is easy to use; select your engine displacement along the bottom scale, then follow the vertical line up to the shaded area to give the prop size range for that engine.
Propeller size chart
Although this chart is related to Top Flight's Power Point range of props, the size ranges suit all brands.
EP propeller sizes

It's no secret that matching a prop to an IC engine is fairly easy if you follow the general size recommendations outlined in the above chart, which have long been accepted in the hobby. Fitting an incorrect prop would mean the engine would still run, but your plane would perform poorly.
But with the advent of electric power (EP), propeller selection became a whole new minefield!
EP prop selection is much more critical because different combinations of motors, ESCs and battery packs can generate huge differences in operating speeds and loads.
As with IC, electric motor manufacturers give a specific propeller size range for their motors but it's more critical that the range must be adhered to. Over-propping can do irreversible damage to electric motors and ESCs, because an incorrect propeller will force the motor to work harder than it was designed to.
If you put an oversize prop on an IC engine, the engine will likely stall. No harm done. Put an oversize prop on an electric motor and the motor won't stall, it'll just keep on trying to turn the prop.
The motor will draw more and more current as it tries to keep up with its Kv rating - the number of revolutions per minute it has been designed to turn, per each volt fed into it. With too big a propeller, the motor will just keep working harder and harder to spin the extra load, until something (likely the ESC) overheats and catches fire.
Too small a propeller on an EP motor won't do any damage, but you won't get the required performance for your plane. The motor will draw less current and the plane will likely be seriously under-powered.
The only accurate way to know whether or not your EP propeller is resulting in the correct current draw through the ESC and motor is to use a Watt meter connected between battery pack and ESC, as the video below shows...



Number of propeller blades

A 3 bladed propellerThe majority of propellers used in the radio control flying hobby have two blades but props with three or even four blades are available.
Two-bladed propellers are commonly used because they are relatively efficient and easy and cheap to produce but sometimes an rc airplane will call for more blades, particularly where a scale look is required.
Adding more blades decreases the overall efficiency of the prop because each blade has to cut through more turbulent air from the preceding blade - in fact a single blade propeller is the most efficient but these are rarely (almost never!) seen in our hobby although they have been experimented with. Incidentally a single blade prop has to be balanced with a counterweight on the other side of the hub to the blade, otherwise the plane would shake itself to pieces as soon as the prop was turning!
If choosing a three or four bladed propeller the general rule of thumb is to decrease the prop diameter by an inch and increase the pitch by an inch, but on some models fuselage and ground clearance issues might dictate which propeller size you can and can't have on the model. As with everything, trial and error - and forums!
Well hopefully this page has given you an understanding of propellers used on rc airplanes, and an idea of how to select the right size propeller for your model.
Remember to follow your engine/motor manufacturer recommendations whenever you can, and use a Watt meter if you are going to experiment with different propeller sizes for EP rc planes.


The Chart did not copy and paste, my head hurts from all this reading....I need more pictures!!
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Post  OVERLORD Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:24 pm

What about a RCV 60-SP 4 stroke, 10cc engine?
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Post  pkrankow Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:44 pm

One blade are more efficient because of effective diameter. Multi-blade props are not cutting through the previous blade's wash in typical operation. There is quite a bit going on with propeller choices, it is not an easy topic.

Phil

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Post  ian1954 Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:13 pm

Lieven - you have surprised me. It is the little engine with the big heart!

I was going to post this picture next (shame to waste a picture)

Which engine is this likely to be? Props010

but here it is

Which engine is this likely to be? Rcv10

with the larger 120

Which engine is this likely to be? Rcv_0010

and probably the equivalent conventional glow.

Which engine is this likely to be? Rcv_0110
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Post  Marleysky Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:12 pm

I never would have guessed at a rotary cylinder 4 stroke! Thanks for the pictures and diversion to : http://www.rcvengines.com/rcv_modelhome.htm
Single cylinder Multi fuel! "
As a result the engine runs efficiently on all the major fuels:- gasoline, JP8 / JP5 / kerosene. On all these fuels it runs in a predictable manner and is insensitive to changes in fuel composition. The engine is easy to tune with performance being maintained over a wide band of ignition timing and mixture. All fuels are run using spark ignition. Operating on gasoline or any of the kerosene based fuels, power and fuel consumption are similar. Operating on diesel fuel requires controlled conditions, and power will be around 5 - 10% less, and fuel consumption around 10% greater. Both diesel and JP8 / JP5 / kerosene require pre-heat to start the engine. Once at full operating temperature the engine handles and functions as with gasoline.
Bet you are going to have some fun with this one!!
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Post  OVERLORD Sat Mar 19, 2016 5:26 pm

Cogito ergo sum! I can easily see you buying such an engine. just brill!!!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCChLocCp_g
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Post  ian1954 Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:05 pm

@OVERLORD wrote:Cogito ergo sum! I can easily see you buying such an engine. just brill!!!


Unfortunately "Cogito ergo sum" is often mistranslated as, in French, "Je pense, donc je suis" and English "I think, therefore I am"

The actual translation for Latin scholars is "because I think I know I exist".

There is a joke around the mistranslation - René Descartes walks into McDonalds and orders a Big Mac and a large coke. The cashier asks if he would like fries with that and he pauses for a moment, then replies "I think not..... Oh sh**" and then disappears.

Think about it!
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Post  getback Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:21 pm

Very impressive engine and I have thought about it and still an't sure this Rene dude was a long time ago I fail French and live and from the country lol! St.Pats Beers I half ass understand the way it works from watching the cut away ( but did take a min. and have heard of these amazing feats of engineering Very Happy Eric Crazy Eyes
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Post  fit90 Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:45 pm

WOW! That is cool! I remember reading about them when they first became commercially available. I think that was the early 1990's, wasn't it? I have only seen advertising pictures. They look like they have been beautifully made. I hope you run one and tell us all bout it. They look magnificent.
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Post  pkrankow Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:11 pm

That is ingenious! Awesome engine.
Phil
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Post  ian1954 Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:21 pm

They sound nice and can be started remotely. No finger biting.

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Post  Marleysky Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:36 pm

[quote="ian1954"]They sound nice and can be started remotely. No finger biting.

Yes they sound very realistic. No finger biting....that puppy could take off your whole hand!!

oH YEAH, i THINK NOT....therefor I am not. Heh heh hee No fries with that thanks !
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Post  RknRusty Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:19 am

Is there a large scale version of this system to power a full size airframe?
I think, therefore I forgot... something

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Post  Oldenginerod Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:43 am

With the prop being attached to the rotating cylinder, being half crankshaft speed, I imagine that the engine would be able to run a pretty large prop for its capacity. It would be an excellent choice for a scale model requiring a compact engine, which could be fully enclosed in a scale cowl on something like a P-51 or Spitfire. Fascinating seeing how they operate, but I do see some potential pitfalls, mainly being excessive piston and rod-eye wear due to the rotating cylinder and also sealing of the intake and exhaust valves/ports. Fits would need to be extemely close. It also runs a bevel gear which may sap quite a bit of power.

Rod.
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Which engine is this likely to be? Empty RCV 60

Post  GWILLIEFOX Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:17 am



My RCV 60, 14x9 prop, 6K rpm.  I've only run this engine for a few demos and didn't have the proper starting wand.  This engine makes a lot of mechanical noise; you know things are going on.  It also runs quite hot as it looks like Ian's does.  I think the cooling fins should have been axial instead of radial.

I got the engine used and it had an ill fitting Perry carb.  I replace it with a carb from a Fox Falcon 60 and it runs much better.  How about that, replacing a Perry with a Fox!
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Post  getback Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:19 am

That engine has a nice buzz to it when running , I turned the music off and the sound up ! And just had to know what one would set you back , and its not as bad as I would have thought . Hope you get her running w/video Ian . That remote start is the cats behind , here's where I found them for sale http://www.hobbyhorse.com/rcv.shtml . Just more engine than I will need . getback Babe Bee .049
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Post  roddie Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:16 am

I guess that the 2:1 output-gearing explains the need for higher-pitch props? I was curious and looked for general info on these engines.

Here's what I found.

RCV engines FAQ

RCV prop chart
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Post  GWILLIEFOX Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:34 am

Which engine is this likely to be? Captur10
Which engine is this likely to be? Rcv10
Just found this drawing and picture in my files. The drawing explains the engines weight, 2 crankshaft BBs, a crank sized BB at the prop end and a massive BB around the bottom of the cylinder. And then add the massive helical bevel gears.

And regarding my note about the cooling fins; I think I read somewhere that cooling ducts had to be built into the fuselage to duct air PERPENDICULAR to the fins and then out. In that case, the fins would do the job. The designer did have noses like the P51 and Spit in mind.
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Post  ian1954 Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:45 am

Cooling is an issue with these engines. Although 10% nitro all synthetic fuel is recommended - adding up to but no more than 6% castor oil is suggested "just in case".

Which engine is this likely to be? Rcv_co10

Which engine is this likely to be? Rcv_co11
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Post  Cribbs74 Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:40 pm

I love it!

Now how to make it CL?

How much does it weigh?
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Post  roddie Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:10 pm

@Cribbs74 wrote:I love it!

Now how to make it CL?

How much does it weigh?

The 10cc with silencer weighs 605g. (21.3oz.) and (I think) might be about right for a .60 size stunt-ship. It might be a handful though! The engines come with an RC carb.. but I don't see why you couldn't put a solid-linkage on it. Have people been flying big stunters using these engines over on Stunthanger? One caution.. these engines run hot (watch the shut-down in the vid) If cowled-in.. I'd provide twice the recommended air-flow through the cowl to prevent overheating with control-line flying (the manufacturer stresses proper air-flow inside a cowl). The N.E.S.T guys up here were flying .60 size PA airplanes back when I was a member back in the early 1990's. I can probably get you some original plans of the ships that Dave Cook designed.

The engine is currently selling for $300.00 (Hobby Horse-Eric's link) including silencer and a mounting plate. The mounting-plate I assume is the RCV radial type. They recommend a VERY sturdy firewall or test-stand for operation. The engine comes with a two-year warranty. I thought that was pretty good..

See some laser-cut .60 size kits here too Ron. Only another $300.00

http://www.aeroproduct.net/
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Post  ian1954 Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:46 am

Bear in mind that these are four stroke engines. The 60 produces about the same power as a .40 two stroke. To match a .60, you would need the .90.

Also, you would probably have to increase the length of the under carriage. The smallest prop on the .60 is a 13x13 and the .90 is 15.5 x 12 - all four blade props.
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