Cranking and running Norvel engines

A few years ago I bought one of Dr.Diesel's (Eric Clutton ) Valve Lock Fuel Bottles and it's all that I will use. It is for Diesel and Glow and is equipped with a locking brass valve to seal the bottle. They are expensive at $10 each but is very easy and convenient to use..
They are as close to spill proof as you can get..FYI.....Steve...

gcb wrote:

PV Pilot wrote:You know, I feel the same way. Sullivan(founded in the 1940's) has been in this game longer than some of us have been alive and I feel that if those bulbs were a detrement to there business, they would have been pulled from the lineup a long time ago. I have always used a Sullivan fuel bulb for all the years I have been a hobbyist(36yrs) and I have never had one cause abnormal engine operation or wear. That being said, I do always drain those bulbs till they just blow air, and before each reuse I flush-swish them out with a bit of fuel before loading the engine or tank.

I too have used Sullivan Pylon bulbs since the mid ninteen fifties and the only problem I ever had with them was that diesel fuel melts them. I learned that the hard way. Years later they made a special bulb for gas and diesel but it's WAY too big for my purposes. I still use the small fuel bulb for everything except diesels and NORVELS.

I have a NORVEL white plastic fueler for NORVELs and diesels.

George

I've always kept a fuel filter in the line from my syringe and bulb. Every so often, I peek inside it to see if there's any crap in there, but have not found any. I don't flush them with alcohol, but DO make sure they're as empty as possible when shutting down.

Also, being the Heretic that I am, I must confess that I got fed up with flipping my springless .061, and zapped my Hornet Starter to it! The thing started almost instantly, and I ran it for a long time (probably 15 minutes or so) alternately leaning and richening it the whole time.

I was using a black 6-3 and a gray 5-3 across several runs, and was getting a dependable mid-16 on the 6-3 (can't remember what the 5-3 did and forgot to take a photo). This ought to pull my Scout or Otto around just fine. Fuel was Sig 25%...I've got 35%, but was so happy with the stable needle valve setting, that I'd didn't try any.

Anyway...that was my deal. They DO seem to be great little engines !

I think I got lucky. I have been running a tap through the threads on the damaged crank from the engine I did the fine thread NVA mod on and I got the threads cleaned out pretty well without damaging them. I was so happy I polished it up to a nice shine as well. I think I will reinstall it in the engine. I also turned the hole in the spray bar straight down. I know it will be two changes at once but I will have to give them a try.

Woo Hoo!

This weekend I'm going to put my fine thread NVA on my .061 and get the hang of starting it under pressure. Once I'm down with that, my experimentation can be officially finished and it will be awaiting a suitable airframe. It's plans are being drawn up on the dining room table now. Basically another Flite Streak only with lines similar to the Hyper Viper as I mentioned in my other thread. Between now and then I might give it a rip on the Stuntman just for the fun of it. Hope it doesn't blow the wings off of it. The new plane will probably take a couple of months to build.

I promise, between now and then, I'll get the MP Jet mounted up and running. Saturday morning, weather permitting is flying time. So much fun, so little time.

If it blows the wings off the Stuntman and the crankshaft is damaged during the ensuing gopher hunt let me know. I think I have a spare now.

fit90 wrote:If it blows the wings off the Stuntman and the crankshaft is damaged during the ensuing gopher hunt let me know. I think I have a spare now.

I'll let you know. If it does blow the wings off, I sure hope I get it on camera, that would be too good to miss. I'm going to give your old Tee Dee one last flight on the Stuntman Saturday and then I'm going to put the Norvel on it. I hope it doesn't feel insulted to be mounted on such a grungy plane. I'll start with a MA 5.5x3 on 40' and see how she likes that.

I'll find the TD a new job, my old first TD, it's too good to collect dust. I might cut the wing out of the Bean and build a new one around the old wing and put the TD on it. It might be too much for the Li'l Satan.

My, how plans change from that old post above...
When my club friend gave me his old Baby Flite Streak he also gave me a Norvel which he claimed was an .049. Well the Flite streak had some minor damage to the fuse tail and I got it fixed up today. It was too cold to put the last shot of clearcoat on the Re Fried Bean, so I tinkered with the new Streak and its engine. The plane looks like it was maidened and crashed and never flew again. I can see why it crashed, the elevator throws were completely botched, and for some reason the engine had been mounted too far forward.

After I fixed all that up, I put the engine back together after some serious de-gumming. It turned out to be another .061, not an .049. It would barely turn when I got it. I bolted it to the test stand and fired it up and it ran like crap for one tank, and then lit off like it was going to take the sawhorse with it. I tached it at a clean smooth 28.1k RPM. I've got a beast on my hands. My brand new one which most of this thread is about still needs some breaking in to reach it's peak and it was straining to hit 25k. That one will be on the Bean for its upcoming maiden, and this old greaser that runs 28k will be on the new Streak, likely with a party balloon pressure-less bladder. I may maiden both the same day. I have a free day Tuesday and I'm on track for flying them then.

I had too many guests and other Thanksgiving holiday stuff going on since Wednesday and through tomorrow to keep up with my projects, but I was so surprised and pleased at how the old greaser ran I had to post about it. So soon, after never putting a Norvel in the air, I'll have two flying. I better be ready to hang on tight.

Well, once you get a taste for the Norvels it is very hard to go back to cox engines...

microflitedude wrote:I had an AME RC version once, but sold it to Johnnie Boy. I never could get it to start, I followed what everyone has said here. I guess I didn't have the patience for it. No plane for it either.

When it arrived, I screwed to my wooden pallet test mount
Connected the tank with muffler pressure nipple as us R/C
Bods always do and put the starter on it.
It fired within a second.

I reminded my Dad last night of his Morris Minor he had
When I was about 4. He said "what the one with the
Awful Hand crank"?
Needless to say he hasn't felt the need to hand crank a car since either.

A spring starter helps, I've never found any need for electric starters. Also, when new, it helps to heat up the cylinder to relieve some of the pinch.

all this Norvel/NV starting, modifing, and tuning got me curious and perhaps adding to my Santa wish list

What is difference in CL Big Mig vs. the AMD version

Seems most opt for the .061 vs. the .049....opinions please

Rusty cold ran the engine exactly as NV web site requires for cold run in....several of you seemed to say No NO No and gave good reasoning...comments please. I am in the camp that sez hot cold cycles for break in are best for longivity

Curious about the two engines in this thread that had a fine thread needle and spraybar pressed in. Both have different venturi interior size. Does Ken's have an insert?

fredvon4 wrote:

What is difference in CL Big Mig vs. the AMD version

Seems most opt for the .061 vs. the .049....opinions please

Rusty cold ran the engine exactly as NV web site requires for cold run in....several of you seemed to say No NO No and gave good reasoning...comments please. I am in the camp that sez hot cold cycles for break in are best for longivity

Curious about the two engines in this thread that had a fine thread needle and spraybar pressed in. Both have different venturi interior size. Does Ken's have an insert?

The engines were originally imported from Russia for 1/2A combat and all out speed was the primary goal. After the engines became more popular, Ed Stevens acquired the distribution rights and renamed the company to NORVEL, a contraction of the original importer, Northern Velocity. With his guidance, the engines became very popular with the general public; they also went thru several evolutions of development including an R/C version. The AMD (AME) was a full blown racing engine and difficult for many to easily master. In addition, it did not throttle very well due to the massive intake ports. To improve marketability, the Big Mig was introduced. Both the AME and Big Mig are outwardly identical for the R/C version. The AME C/L has a needle valve at ninty degrees to the crank; the Big Mig NV is swept back. Internally, the Big Mig has 5 round intake ports; the idea was to increase mixture velocity at low speeds for better throttling. The AME has 3 large oblong intake ports, not too good for idling, but great for high speed.

The Big Mig does not have the top end of the AME, but is easier to set up, needle and run as R/C -- sort of a kinder and gentler AME.

Unless you're going to be competing in speed classes, the .061 is an obvious choice -- it has 25% more displacement for the same weight.

Run in hot - period. While heat cycling works for many of the piston/cylinder combinations, the NORVEL is unique in that it is AAO construction, i.e., aluminum piston; aluminum oxide cylinder. This is essentially a hard anodized cylinder -- the marketing data called it a ceramic coating. Aluminum anodize is very hard, but porous so it can hold oil. Without a liner, the cylinder needs to be run at near operating temperature to maintain the appropriate expansion. You can let it cool completely after running, but when started, get it quickly up to temp.

fredvon4 wrote:Curious about the two engines in this thread that had a fine thread needle and spraybar pressed in. Both have different venturi interior size. Does Ken's have an insert?

Thanks to Andrew for clearing up the details of the evolution of the Big Mig. I was thinking the AME had ball bearings, but maybe not.

As for one of the engines Ken showed us, he had removed the venturi assembly and just mounted a spraybar right into the venturi receptacle which is part of the crankcase casting. For pressure bladder feed, a wide open air inlet like this works. You'd never get it to suck fuel out of any other kind of tank though.

RknRusty wrote: I was thinking the AME had ball bearings, but maybe not.

As for one of the engines Ken showed us, he had removed the venturi assembly and just mounted a spraybar right into the venturi receptacle which is part of the crankcase casting.

None of the engines from the .074 down have ball bearings --- but are bronze bushed.

When NORVEL was being run by Ed Stevens and later after SIG bought the distribution rights, you could buy C/L venturi's in three sizes, depending on whether you wanted to run muffler pressure, crankcase pressure or bladder. The higher the pressure, the larger venturi you could use. Ken's approach is probably the ultimate large venturi. Having a very large shaped insert to increase intake velocity and maybe improve atomization might be the only remaining improvement.

Rusty,

Sorry if this sounds like a silly question, but watching you start the Norvel on the middle of the 5th page video you posted in this topic, I could swear it looks like your chicken-sticking it backwards? Is it just me or is that something that actually works on some motors? I look at the pitch of the prop (it doesn't appear to be a reverse prop) but your sticking it in the opposite direction of normal prop rotation.

I've only spring started my 061, it's been a great motor until this past weekend when I started it up again after letting it sit in it's old fuel for 5 years. That took a few tanks of gas to clear out...

Thanks for the replies and lesson on interior design porting. I have read every page and description on the NV site and had to assume the AMD was different internally.

Curious that they call it AME on the "NV Difference" page but AMD on all the ordering pages.

Also curious is the NV AMD 061CL is AMD 061- Pre-Revelite Race Engine on the order page. I do not see a 061 CL Revelite version for sale.

I would like to have a Big Mig and a AMD(AME) so what are my buying choices and is it possible to still buy at retail the better versions? What are the better versions and how do I identify one?

My question about the venturi casting opening (sans venturi) interior of Kens on page 6 and fit90 on page 8 are probably because the Big Mig (Ken) and AMD (fit90) are different castings...It looked to me like Ken had made an insert on his to reduce venturi size. I have several different inserts for my square venturi Enya

daddyo

welcome to the forum

Rusty was doing a starting technique we call compression bump starting and works fairly well on many high compression engines. You are correct normal rotation is counter clockwise for most engines and propellers.

Turning the prop clockwise (backwards) the piston will come up on compression and try to fire early and send it back in the right rotation much faster then you can hand flip it. Most of the time it will start right off.

I have two SuperTiger engines a .61 and a .90 that I prime the carb with four turns of prop with finger over venturi, put glow clip on, grab the spinner and flip clockwise and they fire counterclockwise almost every time in warm Texas weather. On a cold morning I electric start

fredvon4 wrote:
Curious that they call it AME on the "NV Difference" page but AMD on all the ordering pages.

Also curious is the NV AMD 061CL is AMD 061- Pre-Revelite Race Engine on the order page. I do not see a 061 CL Revelite version for sale.

Here's a description that I've posted elsewhere:

The Russian Cyrillic letters appeared on the earlier 1 piece crankcases. These translated roughly to AMD and stood for Aviation Model Engine (авиации модельный двигатель). The letters were later replaced with the English displacements for .049 and .061. Both the AME and BigMig looked outwardly the same, so checking the ports is the only means of determining which one you have.

NORVEL (Northern Velocity) originally got into the import business to supply high performance controlline engines and the English equivalent AME was applied. When they later got into production of the BigMig, the designation AME was retained to differentiate between the high performance engine and the kinder, gentler BigMig.

The Cyrillic Д --- pronounced like the "d" in "dog" (equivalent to the English letter "d") is often mistaken for a triangle or the letter A on the early engines.

I believe that NV Engines is continuing to sell engines from old stock and is still not tooled up for new production. I went back and looked thru my stock of engines and do have a Revlite AME C/L version (NFS, sorry), so they were available at one time. The C/L AME and R/C AME are the same engine with the exception of the carb/venturi. I haven't checked the diameter of the C/L venturi on the Big Mig vs the AME, but I would suspect that they differ.

Thank you for the history. I am a big fan of ceramic coatings and have spent a few bucks having piston tops coated on my racing Harley Davidson engines.

So if I buy the current AMD(AME) 061 that sez pre revelite on thier page what piston and liner design was used? Aluminum Oxide, (hard anodising)

Seriously considering just buying a Big Mig and AMD with a few parts from the NV site. They mention Sig as distributors but no NV engines on that web site

Is there any other source for these engines beside Ebay auctions

fredvon4 wrote:Thank you for the history. I am a big fan of ceramic coatings and have spent a few bucks having piston tops coated on my racing Harley Davidson engines.

So if I buy the current AMD(AME) 061 that sez pre revelite on thier page what piston and liner design was used? Aluminum Oxide, (hard anodising)

Seriously considering just buying a Big Mig and AMD with a few parts from the NV site. They mention Sig as distributors but no NV engines on that web site

Is there any other source for these engines beside Ebay auctions

Hopefully this helps Fred
http://www.nvengines.com/

Thanks John, that is the NV site I am getting the confusing information from and probably going to buy from... was looking for another source.

It bugs me to buy from some suppliers or companies that have what I consider a lot of incomplete or contradictory information.

I know some here claim the experiance with NV was excellent.

My web searching is not extensive yet. Just asking if there is second or third source for engines and parts

www.nvengines.com is the manufacturer, you cannot find a better source than the source itself...

They have a representative in US that also goes under the name "honestguy" on ebay if you prefer that.