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Post  rsv1cox Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:20 pm

From the Cox Model Engine Handbook page 13.

Just for fun I singled out all my tapered cases from my latest Cox engine rebuilds to see the ratio of narrow to enlarged necks as defined by Dannels and Sitter. Not even close at 12 to 1.

I never paid much attention, but the difference is apparent when positioned side by side.

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Post  Ken Cook Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:36 pm

Bob, while I really like the appearance of the small case, I broke many of them as a kid. I used to fly a lot over asphalt which probably wasn't a bad thing. It taught me not to crash. It also taught me to do what was needed in the event of a crash.  I just threw all of my broken parts away. I had this stuff for 40 years just sitting in a little red case. I kept thinking what the heck am I doing with this stuff. I suppose it's hard to part with stuff. I disposed of dozens of backplates. After seeing the request for a used one, I was thinking uh oh, maybe I shouldn't tossed them.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:48 pm

Was looking for a graphic illustration that I possibly may have saved to no avail, it gave approximate dates to changes in the crankcase over time. All I have is Mark Boesen's Babe Bee nutshell graphic, which doesn't get into crankcase details except for snap starter groove. Wikipedia's Cox Engine article lacks this detail, too. Wikipedia: Cox Model Engine

The narrower Deco curved crankcase journal nose was the earlier one from the 1950's I believe. the thicker one came later, some time in the 1960's, may be mid to latter latter 1960's I believe. the crankcase nose was strengthened to provide better longevity and crash damage resistance. Some time in the 1970's Cox simplified the Deco curved nose to straight to simplify machining.

I've got my share of these, just never got deeply involved in the specifics. Nice collection of Bee's BTW.
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Post  rsv1cox Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:11 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:Was looking for a graphic illustration that I possibly may have saved to no avail, it gave approximate dates to changes in the crankcase over time. All I have is Mark Boesen's Babe Bee nutshell graphic, which doesn't get into crankcase details except for snap starter groove. Wikipedia's Cox Engine article lacks this detail, too. Wikipedia: Cox Model Engine

The narrower Deco curved crankcase journal nose was the earlier one from the 1950's I believe. the thicker one came later, some time in the 1960's, may be mid to latter latter 1960's I believe. the crankcase nose was strengthened to provide better longevity and crash damage resistance. Some time in the 1970's Cox simplified the Deco curved nose to straight to simplify machining.

I've got my share of these, just never got deeply involved in the specifics. Nice collection of Bee's BTW.

According to the handbook, The first case developed was the narrow neck, then around 1968 they changed to the enlarged neck "due to failure during crashes." The straight nose arrived early 1970.

Bob
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Post  rsv1cox Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:16 pm

Ken Cook wrote:Bob, while I really like the appearance of the small case, I broke many of them as a kid. I used to fly a lot over asphalt which probably wasn't a bad thing. It taught me not to crash. It also taught me to do what was needed in the event of a crash.  I just threw all of my broken parts away. I had this stuff for 40 years just sitting in a little red case. I kept thinking what the heck am I doing with this stuff. I suppose it's hard to part with stuff. I disposed of dozens of backplates. After seeing the request for a used one, I was thinking uh oh, maybe I shouldn't tossed them.

You brought back memories of my early flights Ken.

In my mind I still can clearly see and feel the disappointment when I saw one of my early Babe Bee's with a mushroomed case and bent over prop drive washer after a crash.  I remember at least two that way.  Another $4.95 out the window I yelled.  Course, I was to blame.  Smile

I wish I had saved them too.  

Bob
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Post  KariFS Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:08 pm

Thanks for posting the picture Bob!

I’ll need look at my collection more closely now. I do know I have at least one product engine without the spring groove and a couple of Babe Bees with the text on the tank, so their noses have to be of the narrow type. The wider nose is the most rare of them, being in production for only two years, not sure if I have any of those.

Maybe I need to get that book too Huh...
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Post  rsv1cox Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:29 pm

KariFS wrote:Thanks for posting the picture Bob!

I’ll need look at my collection more closely now. I do know I have at least one product engine without the spring groove and a couple of Babe Bees with the text on the tank, so their noses have to be of the narrow type. The wider nose is the most rare of them, being in production for only two years, not sure if I have any of those.

Maybe I need to get that book too Huh...

The book is a wonderful reference, and a curse Kari.  

I started to document the variations and gave up on just these.  

Narrow neck nose / Enlarged neck nose Cox_la23

Cylinders 1/2/3 etc, cases, back plates, drive washers, spinners, throttles, needles, horseshoes, postage stamps, colors.  Combinations on combinations.  

After 20 or so I just said they are all different and ripped up my paper.  

Boggles the mind.  Smile
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Post  Mark Boesen Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:50 pm

lol, you need to look into Wen-Macs, they're even better!
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Post  Davenz13 Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:11 pm

The book is a wonderful reference, and a curse Kari.  

I started to document the variations and gave up on just these.  

Cylinders 1/2/3 etc, cases, back plates, drive washers, spinners, throttles, needles, horseshoes, postage stamps, colors.  Combinations on combinations.  

After 20 or so I just said they are all different and ripped up my paper.  

Boggles the mind.  Smile[/quote]

Well you're going to hate this then Bob
Like you, when I got the book I found it hard to identify engines without some way of easily documenting the individual differences so I made this chart up. I have one for the .20 engines as well. The notes section at the bottom is for points of difference  and where I can't exactly identify it. It's not fool proof but it sure helps. It's in XL spreadsheet format so I had to convert it to jpg to post it
If it keeps you up half the night with "that book"  don't blame me lol!
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Post  ticomareado Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:39 pm

I used to be very active there until they switched to yahoo platform. I never could get functional with that.
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Post  Mark Boesen Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:13 pm

rsv1cox wrote:
GallopingGhostler wrote:Was looking for a graphic illustration that I possibly may have saved to no avail, it gave approximate dates to changes in the crankcase over time. All I have is Mark Boesen's Babe Bee nutshell graphic, which doesn't get into crankcase details except for snap starter groove. Wikipedia's Cox Engine article lacks this detail, too. Wikipedia: Cox Model Engine

The narrower Deco curved crankcase journal nose was the earlier one from the 1950's I believe. the thicker one came later, some time in the 1960's, may be mid to latter latter 1960's I believe. the crankcase nose was strengthened to provide better longevity and crash damage resistance. Some time in the 1970's Cox simplified the Deco curved nose to straight to simplify machining.

I've got my share of these, just never got deeply involved in the specifics. Nice collection of Bee's BTW.

According to the handbook, The first case developed was the narrow neck, then around 1968 they changed to the enlarged neck "due to failure during crashes."  The straight nose arrived early 1970.

Bob

That's about right, the tapered case was enlarged in 1968, due to wear of cutting tool or redesign. The absence of the starter spring groove is a neat way to ID an early case. Another is oil grooves on inside of case, early version didn't have one, then one for about a year or so, then by '57-'58 two.
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Post  NEW222 Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:22 pm

Mark Boesen wrote:That's about right, the tapered case was enlarged in 1968, due to wear of cutting tool or redesign. The absence of the starter spring groove is a neat way to ID an early case. Another is oil grooves on inside of case, early version didn't have one, then one for about a year or so, then by '57-'58 two.
Narrow neck nose / Enlarged neck nose 008_310

Very interesting. I never knew that. I had only thought the oil groove was the one along the 'neck'. I did not realize until you posted the picture that some engines had none, some had one, and some have two. I did not know those 'grooves' on the end were oil grooves. Thanks for the info.
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Post  Oldenginerod Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:13 am

Mark Boesen wrote:
That's about right, the tapered case was enlarged in 1968, due to wear of cutting tool or redesign. The absence of the starter spring groove is a neat way to ID an early case. Another is oil grooves on inside of case, early version didn't have one, then one for about a year or so, then by '57-'58 two.
Narrow neck nose / Enlarged neck nose 008_310

Darn, now I'm gonna have to pull all my early engines apart to check Doh!
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Post  rsv1cox Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:13 am

That's one of the things that stopped me too Rod, No way was I going to disassemble all those pictured engines to check that groove, to say nothing about dealing with those additional engines inside the display case.

Great job davenz on that .049 identification sheet. Much simpler and easier to understand than what I attempted to construct.

I started with a series of columns listing the variations - Cylinders, Cases, Back plates, Colors, etc. Then assigned an inventory number to each engine 1,2,3, etc. then used check marks within each column with the idea of adding up each check mark within each column.

Excedrin headache #9.

Great picture of the case insides Mark.

Then there are the car engines with their various drives, colors, heat sinks, crank shafts, cases (front groove), and cooling mechanisms. More boggle!!

Narrow neck nose / Enlarged neck nose Cox_ca46

Narrow neck nose / Enlarged neck nose Cox_ca48

And yes, the Wen's/Testor's had their variations too Mark, but were they as extensive as Cox????

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Post  Mark Boesen Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:13 pm

Great looking collection sir!

Yes, there's appx. 26-30 different variations for the Wen-Mac series.
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Post  rsv1cox Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:32 pm

Mark Boesen wrote:Great looking collection sir!

Yes, there's appx. 26-30 different variations for the Wen-Mac series.

Oh dear...........More boggle. Sad

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Post  Mark Boesen Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:39 pm

lol, ....sorry, that's just Wen-Macs, up to about 1968, Testors are whole different thing!
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Post  ticomareado Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:51 pm

There are way more than 26 to 28 iterations of Wen-Mac engines (original company plus AMF) when all variations are catalogued.
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Post  Mark Boesen Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:06 pm

yep, not counting the variations of the engines, 27 models for '52-'66


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/049Collectors/files


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Post  rsv1cox Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:13 pm

Mark Boesen wrote:yep, not counting the variations of the engines, 27 models for '52-'66


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/049Collectors/files



It's hard to believe that Wen Macs would even approach the variations available in Cox engines, even if you tossed out all the TD's.

I sold most of my Wen/Testor/Ok Cub parts engines on ebay.  It's amazing what they went for.  

Narrow neck nose / Enlarged neck nose Wens10

Thinking about doing the same with my OK Cubs.
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Post  Mark Boesen Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:48 pm

Narrow neck nose / Enlarged neck nose 10951010
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Post  rsv1cox Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:31 am

Now that's a pretty picture. Diesels too, never saw them before. Out of the box?

Bob
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Post  ticomareado Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:56 am

With Cub .049s, it goes way beyond that. Starter gismos, different length front ends/thrust plates, cast and machined con rods, glow heads and glow plugs, double and single crankcase bypass ports (singles won't fly an indoor microfilm model-- have to be products of hung over drunks in machine shop) Cubs were a mess in terms of QC and metalurgy but the design itself really produces quite a power house for weight and vintage as a few rebuild/hop up articles attest. A real hot one cobbled from parts and worked on a little with plenty of nitro will probably outrun (while it lasts) a Medallion with a 2 port cylinder. No telling what could be done with it if manufactured with good metal to Cox tolerances. (and money, of course)
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Post  Mark Boesen Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:15 pm

no, they're just new or like new, i got them from Guy Eves, 'bout 20 years ago.

Bob Beecroft used to open up the ports on a Cub and get pretty strong RPM out of them, but your right, a Cub if not fitted or broke in properly (or correct oil) can wear out in 1/2 doz. flights
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Post  rsv1cox Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:30 pm

Mark Boesen wrote:no, they're just new or like new, i got them from Guy Eves, 'bout 20 years ago.

Bob Beecroft used to open up the ports on a Cub and get pretty strong RPM out of them, but your right, a Cub if not fitted or broke in properly (or correct oil) can wear out in 1/2 doz. flights

Well Mark, you have peaked my interest in Cubs.  Glad I didn't sell them all, including the one I offered you NIB a year or so ago.  Smile

But, the best of mine do not glow like yours in the picture.  Guy must have carefully disassembled and polished all of them, or am I mistaken....again?

Narrow neck nose / Enlarged neck nose Ok_cub10

If my notes on the bags are correct, I test ran at least two - (red anodized fuel tanks).  Probably Cox 25% with added castor.  

There is one Diesel Cub on ebay right now, but after seeing yours, I'm a no-sale.  Maybe I'm finally over the worst of the worst. Going to mount them some how and bring them in out of the cold.

Bob
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