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Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

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Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  JamesHolford on Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:55 pm

Got this Black Widow from a guy a while back online.... and something is telling me its a total rebuild and not a TRUE Black Widow.

The tank has the plastic backplate... the finish on the casing is questionable as it has a blemish but I understand anything is possible.....

Thoughts?





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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  GallopingGhostler on Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:22 pm

Off hand looking at the photos and I could be wrong, looks like rattle can black on engine crankcase, cylinder and tank. My Widows are black anodized, which is a special coating treatment for aluminum not like paint.

Most important would be the porting of the cylinder and a few other enhancements allowing it to provide more power than a Golden Bee. Moving piston to top dead center (TDC), you should see a gap between bottom of piston and edge of exhaust port (sub-port injection - SPI). If it doesn't have that, it would be positive indicator as a fake, but given it is a single wide slot exhaust port probably does have SPI.

I bought my Widows for the power they produced, not the aesthetic enhancements. However, given the difference in cost between Internet auction and what Ex Model Engines and Cox International offers in their Black Widow 2, I'd rather go for the latter, if I was looking to buy.

Unless a reputable seller, I'd be suspect with anything from someone I don't know.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  JamesHolford on Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:39 pm

There is a a small gap between bottom of port and bottom of piston so thats a plus.

Altho the finish looks spray painted it isnt... just not sure the quality of the anodization *typo*


I didnt pay much for it so its not a big lost if it is a fake or rebuild. as long as it runs good thats all that matters
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  ticomareado on Sat Apr 14, 2018 5:54 pm

Save the red spinner. Fly it 'til it pukes.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Admin on Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:16 pm

This looks to be a late 80s-mid90s Black Widow. Heat and chemicals can cause anodizing to fade.

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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  ticomareado on Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:25 pm

When did plastic back plates come on the scene?
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Ken Cook on Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:13 pm

Offered in 1987    I wouldn't discredit that one either. Some of the best runners I ever had were of that era. There's nothing wrong with the plastic backplates. The metals versions leak just as much whether it be air leaks or fuel. However, it's plastic which is susceptible to over tightening , breaking etc. I found the plastic to work just fine, just don't offer the engine too many ground poundings because the mounting ears break not to mention you can rip the screws that hold the case on right through the backplate. Also keep that ball socket in tune, these had a fairly thin deck on the piston top and the rod will punch a hole through it in short order. Ken
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  RknRusty on Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:53 pm

Hey, Jamie,
Is there a 1 stamped anywhere on the cylinder? Sometimes it's on the little facing of the edge of an exhaust port. Or on the lower barrel. #1 denotes a BW cylinder. My 1995 BWs had plastic backplates.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Cribbs74 on Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:06 pm

I don’t see anything to make me think it’s not genuine. Bad anodizing maybe, but looks like the real deal, not that it matters much. Late model Cox engines are not overly collectible.

I can say with 100% certainty that it’s all composed of Cox Parts.

Ron

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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  aungmyatoo on Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:07 am

Emerse it in nitro fuel, if the black colour is spray painted, it will gone.
Having said that, there are black widows which were not anodized black. Estete I think.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Forgetful John on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:21 pm

Greetings,

Concerning the plastic backplate I will relate that in the later 80's I purchased two Black Widows for my two sons, one for each, for the purpose of flying control line.  

Then I took a sharp-pointed tool and carved or gouged, your choice, the initials "I" and also "J" into the backplates so as to assign ownership and also responsibility to Ian and John, my sons.  

They both came from Cox with the black plastic backplate, gotten at the same time.  I believe that one of our sponsors, EX, has such an item for sale on their website currently.  Their image is just what I remember them to look like.  

This is not to debate the pros and cons of a metal or plastic backplate but to say that they came both ways.  You might have a "proper" Black Widow after all!

FJ
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  GallopingGhostler on Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:45 am

I've got both versions of BW's, the 1970's version with metal back and a late 1980's version with plastic back. My comments were first impression based on photos and not meant to be taken seriously. Every used engine that I buy I disassemble and clean it. Then if need be, parts replaced. Overhaul kits are reasonably priced and bring an engine back into usable compliance.

Sometime after the mid 1990's when Estes bought Cox, I heard that quality suffered. Only engines I got from this Neo-Cox era were 2 Sure Starts bought from the Estes surplus store for $7 each around 2004 prior to them bellying up. I heard from others that parts were mixed between engine models and as such it was possible for one to get an engine that wasn't 100% what it was supposed to be.

Only way I know of to verify if truly all BW is to disassemble it and verify. Regarding if discrepancies exist, anything could happen with regard to a used engine. If a high mileage engine, I've replaced parts from what was available at a local hobby store. For sport use, back then say if all I could find was a Babe Bee cylinder with only one cylinder bypass port and engine RPM's were down a little, a can of Cox racing fuel would fix that and may be a Tee Dee glow head. As crude as it may seem, I would still be flying. (Reasoning similar to motorcycles follows: "The worst flight is better than the best day of work!" Eyebrows )

So, given that repair parts exist and the engine comes up short handed, it wouldn't be hard to bring it up to standards, just saying. Smile
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  GallopingGhostler on Mon Apr 16, 2018 1:24 pm

aungmyatoo wrote:Immerse it in nitro fuel, if the black colour is spray painted, it will gone. Having said that, there are black widows which were not anodized black. Estes I think.
Actually it was earlier than that and by Cox. Here's a photo,  in the middle my 1970's Black Widow mounted to an Ace R/C Grasshopper break away plywood bulkhead painted with orange dope:



It has a gold anodized crankcase and an Harry Higgley's Heavy Hub as the "spinner". I removed the snap starter that came with it. When new, engine was rather pretty with the gold to offset the black, with a beige gold cast tank back.

This is the later one, late 1980's BW with red spinner and plastic tank back on a Sterling Beginner's Fokker DVII:
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Geist Flieger on Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:54 pm

I purchased a black widow back in 1994 and it came with a plastic backplate. If they used a new backplate you should see where they were filled in the fuel overflow holes. The exhaust ports would be more than likely shinny where they grinded the exhaust port slit to a full open port like the ones Matt and Bernie put together. I think you may have an original cause I restored a friends black widow from that era and his crankcase color was about the same as yours.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:31 pm

While I know there are Cox guys who want the REAL DEAL BW, Killer, or RR...

so far with my acquisition of LOTs (not volume but 25 used for $100) of Cox engines--- and many many parts from Bernie and Matt...I can make almost any Cox engine exceed original RPM and durability

I have at least 4 so called original BWs here that over time the original owner fixed or upgraded...so what...compared to my one and only REAL (NEW 1976) Black widow they all run well and at or above expected RPMs with 25% to 35% fuel

Long ago I gave up the fussy reed valves...still have dozens of them... BUT my passion is simplicity so medallions and Bladder fed TeeDees for me

I am NOT trying to disparage any Cox purest...BUT really these days when we can cobble together any cylinder, piston, and reed to attain a LOT more RPM and power vs a factory stock...be it real Cox or Estes....I fail to see the grief...I bet my 20 some odd reedies are all franken to some degree....

OK rant of grumpy old guy who does not COLLECT...so original real deal is of NO interest to me....function...power...are

Fred ...who has managed to spin more than one prop across the shop from too much RPM....grin
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Geist Flieger on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:36 pm

I agree 100% with you Fred. If your going to use them then who cares if it's a parts engine or not. Only way I see them collectible as an original is if it is unused in the original packaging.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Geist Flieger on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:38 pm

And Tee Dee's and Medallions are much better than reed valve engines.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:03 pm

Geist ...love your forum name...grin


Frederick Carl Timothy Allen von Gortler IV


15 years in Germany and NEVER had to learn my native language....grin


Last edited by fredvon4 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Geist Flieger on Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:06 pm

vielen Dank Fred!
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:59 pm

Grüß Gott Freut mich.


Ha Ha thats all I have brother

I love every single minuet I lived in the various regions of Germany and was astounded how accommodating every one was to make my experience so worth while despite my lack of fluency in the language...

Interesting topic for me as my experience was so over whelming considering how intimidated I was as a soldier in Germany...only to find that a majority of the population was fairly fluent in English, French, and Spanish.... here in my current town a German tourist can only find about 5 folks who could translate or help....and I am not one of them, despite living more years in Germany than any local -even born in Germany- county resident


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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Geist Flieger on Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:06 pm

I feel your pain Fred. If you don't use it you lose it. Both sides of my family were German and my mom's father came to America in the late 30's. I'm not super fluent either but I try to keep it up for my family roots. Thank you for your service Fred. I was a Marine from 97-04.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  JamesHolford on Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:05 pm

RknRusty wrote:Hey, Jamie,
Is there a 1 stamped anywhere on the cylinder? Sometimes it's on the little facing of the edge of an exhaust port. Or on the lower barrel. #1 denotes a BW cylinder. My 1995 BWs had plastic backplates.
Rusty

In fact there is a #1 stamped on the facing of the port!!!!


Im happy with it either way. always wanted a BW cause thats all my dad raved about when I was a tot flying the pt-19.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Geist Flieger on Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:09 pm

Regardless you still have a black widow original or a original parts engines. It still probably has same performance but I still say it is a early 90's black widow. Happy flying!
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

Post  Canso07 on Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:48 pm

I just won the auction on the black widow posted above...does it look original? I thought the cylinder, needle valve, and rubber spinner look different. Thanks for any information.
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Re: Did I just get a fake Black Widow???

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