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Post  NEW222 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:22 pm

So with our not so nice weather lately, I have been getting the itch to keep on trucking with my Micro Ringmaster. While the other half was at work today I thought to myself thet this is a small model. So off to my room I go, crack the dope and think...... This doesn't small bad at all. Well, 4 coats later and I cannot even small it! Great. I go upstairs then come back down a few minutes later. Well, it was like hitting the 'Dope Wall'. Well, no biggie I figure, or so I thought. That is when someone else smells it..... I don't think I will be preforming this action inside again......
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Post  944_Jim on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:34 pm

Chancey,

I feel your pain, Brother! Get creative. A small Harbor Freight beach tent near a garage window with window fan can make for a teardown build room/paint booth.

I tried that move in one of our bathrooms with the vent fan going...even with careful airflow management, I still got "caught." That's when the "Hobby Closet" off to the side of the garage was created by She-who-must-be-protected. I'm still trying to find time to install the through-the-wall ac unit, a divider door between the "work space" and hot water heater, and a bathroom vent connected to a clothes drier vent in order to have a small paint booth in the room.
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Post  Ken Cook on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:40 pm

I use a lot of water based poly due to dealing with the smell of dope. I still initially dope prior to using the water base products. I do have a detached garage to use. Nonetheless, the smell is undesirable not too mention the health aspect. Breathing dope is cumulative and overtime can result in not so good issues. Systems 3 makes a terrific product as well as Auto Air colors. These 2 products stand up to our fuels much greater than dope.
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Post  944_Jim on Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:22 pm

Ken,
You bring up good alternatives. I also read over in StuntHanger about using acrylics with DuPont 3806 thinner. That thread has me scratching my chin!
I'll be experimenting with alternatives by the end of the summer, I hope.
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Post  Oldenginerod on Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:09 am

Is it just a hormonal thing? Guys like dope and glue etc and girls don't? What about nail polish? Pretty much the same stuff and the remover is just acetone.
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Post  Levent Suberk on Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:31 am

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Post  Ken Cook on Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:34 am

Jim, I'm not certain if that's a old thread you were looking at. I can clarify a little on 3608. Dupont made what was Dupont 3608S thinner. The S is very important as it was compatible with most of the dope we use. Dupont also made a 3608VS, not compatible. Dupont no longer makes these products. The new paint line has been renamed Cromax. Cromax still utilizes the 3608S designation. The 3602S designation is what would be desirable for brushing application as it's a slow drying thinner. It also adds another $20 + dollars to the cost. However, the3608S thinner is too hot and can only be used in spraying in high humid conditions. Using it for brushing results in a disaster. I used it mainly for cleaning as I was purchasing a gallon for $39. A gallon now is double that if not more. I was going to try a PPG equivalent and it was $85 a gallon. I have mentioned this for years since being on here, if your going to use dope, use Sig. Brodak rates the lowest and the least fuel resistant.
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Post  rsv1cox on Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:45 am

Levent Suberk wrote:Eze Dope is fuelproof and odorless.

]

Thanks for that link Levent, I have been looking for an alternative.   I have some old Aero gloss and Brodak but by now I'm sure it's some sort of goo.  

Bob


Last edited by rsv1cox on Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Levent Suberk on Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:59 am

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Post  Levent Suberk on Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 am

Interactive catalog of Deluxe Materials. Go to last two pages for videos:

https://www.aztecimport.com/2017updateDeluxecatfinsm2.pdf
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Post  fredvon4 on Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:08 am

Not about dope but glues.......I got turned on to the DELUXE brand a year or three back....product is Super 'Phatic a very fast setting and very thin glue ( watered down TiteBond) it wicks in good like a thin CA BUT takes several minutes to be tight enough to let go or unclamp. Odorless
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Post  944_Jim on Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:41 pm

Ken,

Here is the link discussing the use of dope thinner and acrylic. I think my youngest son has a bottle of the recommended brand. I may try this just to see, but only on a test panel until I know how the blend behaves!

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/thought-i-would-share-my-hurricane/msg551181/#msg551181
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Post  NEW222 on Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:51 pm

And just to update the thread.... So today was cold and windy out making my garage still too cold to work in, I did teh unthinkable..... Yep, I doped the color on the plane inside today..... Shocked However that will be the last time as the next step involves a Sharpie and some craft acrylic paint. The topcoat will be a spray on rattle can clear so it will be done outside as I do not want overspray everywhere in my model room. But, the clear does not smell as bad. However, I have been known to clear and spray small parts in the laundry room, so if the weather does not smarten up things might change. Huh...
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Post  NEW222 on Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:01 pm

That is a good article Jim. Thanks for posting it. I wish I saw this the other day when I was down there, but we do have some cheap paints at the dollar store here. I have an airframe or two I would like to try this method on this year. I tried this last year, but my crappy airbrush gave me some fits.
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Post  crankbndr on Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:56 pm

I looked at System 3 Ken recommended, fuel resistant water based. Looks like good stuff.

http://www.daler-rowney.com/en/content/acrylic
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Post  NEW222 on Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:20 pm

Yes, it does look very good. Well worth the attempt, especially on a small plane.
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Post  944_Jim on Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:39 pm

Guys,
I am skeptical about the Hurricane builder's acrylic option. But I will say his plane looks beautiful!

Chancey is on SH too.
So I was surprised you didn't catch that thread, Chancey.

I only mentioned it as an option worth looking into carefully. In other words, it's almost too good to be true. The cheap in me wants to believe this enough to try it! I did ask if this concoction would brush. "Nope," said the poster. I still can't wrap my head around acrylic mixing with any lacquer thinner at all. But then, I'm not a chemist.

Having said that, I also swore I'd never build with aliphatic glues...but I'm already breaking that with one plane. Another is slotted for the same test as long as build #1 sands ok.

If anyone here tests it, I'd love to know. And if I test it, y'all will know.

For Ken, please. Are acrylics like the System3 and water-based poly-urethane the same thing? And if different, is there any compatibility order of use like "butyrate over nitrate, but never nitrate over butyrate?"
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Post  NEW222 on Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:18 pm

Yes, somehow I missed that thread. Also, I was not the only one that caught teh point you mention. Diluting the craft store water based acrylics with thinner. I just ran out of my little bottle here, but when I go outside, I will try to remember to bring some in and test a little mixture to see. I guess it would work as it should evaporate anyways. As for brushing, I do think it will work, while possibly leaving brush strokes, however, I think that he meant to say 'I only use spray gun or air brush'. And that does show on his model.
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Post  Ken Cook on Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:32 am

I will start by saying that Tom is really doing some interesting paint work. However, it's totally incorrect in terms of compatibility and he's fully aware of this. He's also having adhesion issues. Don't be lured by his wonderful pictures as I can insure you these aren't first time results. The inexpensive paints he's using are just that and essentially what is working in his favor here is the thinner. It flashes off so quickly that the paint itself doesn't have time to run or bleed. While the price tag sounds wonderful, he's incorrect in his cost of 3608S. There was a time and this was back a few years when it could be obtained for about $25 a gallon. The cost has doubled if not tripled by now. In addition if you need to purchase this online, the hazmat fee alone is $45 to send one gallon. Kinda takes the cheap out of the picture.


As far as Systems 3 paints are concerned, Systems 3 is a extremely high quality water based urethane that doesn't just dry through water evaporation. It also uses a chemical reaction. The worse the humidity is, the better the product works. It can be reapplied without having the succeeding coat dry. It CAN"T be applied over lacquer primer or butyrate dope. It will go over nitrate clear with no issue. It requires the Systems 3 crosslinker if using fuel over 5% nitro. There's a lot to learn with this product. This paint is like water color that kids use. You apply it as thin as possible and quickly, let it dry, apply another coat. This can take 3-4 even 5 coats to build it up to depth and coverage. It needs to be recoated within a 8 hour time frame, if left for more, the product needs to be sanded for toothing the next coats. Cleanliness is of the utmost importance, fingerprint oils will totally @#$% this paint up. It doesn't require a spraying equipment to be applied as a throw away sponge brush offers a decent finish. But as mentioned, this paint takes a whole entire new learning curve to understand and use, it's not a simple process.

Nitrate clear is almost universal with every paint on the market as a base coat. It has very little compatibility issues when topcoats are applied over it. While butyrate goes over nitrate, most say don't go the other way. I have done just that many times. Those that say you can't haven't used the product enough to tell you the reasoning why. The reason I can is because I have sprayed it. If one wants to know why, this is why. I use nitrate for sealer coats and attachment coats, I then switch to butyrate. Synthetic coverings don't attach well with butyrate so I use nitrate for attachment and filler coats. If there's damage and I cut back and sand to virgin wood, I use nitrate and blend out onto the butyrate. Those that have had it blistered is because they use a brush and puddle it on. Butyrate is butyl acetate which is a liquid plastic so to speak. The solvents within the nitrate can attack this plastic and crinkle if left to puddle on it. When sprayed, this is a non issue assuming you don't plaster it on.

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Post  944_Jim on Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:29 pm

Ken,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I appreciate the thorough answer.
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