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Tatone muffler internals
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Tatone muffler internals
I have had this thing kicking around my shop just shy of forever, looks to be .15-.19 size. I have heard they seriously rob power, which most mufflers do to some extent. I decided to take it apart and look inside. The first thing I noticed before I broke it down is the wall as soon as the exhaust leaves the engine, horrible for back pressure. The exhaust then has to route around this wall where it is forced to exit through four small holes 2 wide and 2 narrow. Not the best design to say the least. I suppose you could open up the exit holes and possibly smooth the wall edges. Or... you could toss it in the trash bin like I did.
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Funny about that. I had wanted one of those for a long time as I thought they were the Cadillac of mufflers. Honestly besides the prior statement, I did also and still do think they look neat. Apparently I did not know much. How in the world does that one attach though? I thought they were just flat on the edge that meets the exhaust port.
NEW222- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
The flat lip resides under the exhaust port and there are two threaded holes and the strap attaches to them.
I didn’t actually test it so I wouldn’t take what I said as gospel. It’s just from a design standpoint it’s lacking.
I didn’t actually test it so I wouldn’t take what I said as gospel. It’s just from a design standpoint it’s lacking.
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Interesting, Ron.
I bet it traps lots of heat. Probably
quiets the engine, but at a big loss
of power.
Bob
I bet it traps lots of heat. Probably
quiets the engine, but at a big loss
of power.
Bob
dckrsn- Diamond Member
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Ron,
If you haven't taken the trash to the street, I'll pay to ship it to me. The muffler that is...not the trash.
This is one of those things I wanted to play with as a kid. Call me "wishing I was 10 again."
Thanks in advance...but don't freeze over it.
If you haven't taken the trash to the street, I'll pay to ship it to me. The muffler that is...not the trash.
This is one of those things I wanted to play with as a kid. Call me "wishing I was 10 again."
Thanks in advance...but don't freeze over it.
Last edited by 944_Jim on Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clear up the reference)
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944_Jim- Diamond Member
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Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Just another question for this inquiring mind that wants to know.... Is there/was there a gasket between the two halves, or is it just castor residue? Or are they made well enough that they do fit together very nicely?
NEW222- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
I dugit out of the trash Jim.
Chancey, no gasket. Decent fit, it would probably help if it was a bit leaky.
Chancey, no gasket. Decent fit, it would probably help if it was a bit leaky.
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Thank you for the information.
NEW222- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Y never tink of using one Now u just Convince myself that this piece is not very good for performance
davidll1984- Diamond Member
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
I to have a few of those around , there was a discussion about this before and kindy let me down to find it was a power leach . Like Jim (the dumpster diver) lol i would like to run and see if or what improvement could bee made !?!
getback- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
That's not a Peace Pipe is it Ron? I just looked at one close by for a 19-40 size its a strap on type and you can't take it apart , like these https://www.google.com/search?q=tattone+Peace+Pipe+muffler+for+.19-.40+engines&sxsrf=ALeKk03he8HLc8rzXVll0KdCsvv3XInCog:1613482012818&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiowebxwO7uAhXYElkFHbxHCGoQ_AUoAnoECBIQBA&biw=1493&bih=776&dpr=1.13
getback- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Not a peace pipe. Just a regular ol Tatone muffler.
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Ron,
I sent a message from the forum...I believe I selected email vs PM, with a copy sent to my email. I never got my cc, so I have to ask if you got your copy.
If not, then I'll send again directly out of my email...I have your email address from before, but didn't think to look for it when I sent the one a bit ago. I got stuck in the convenience factor, but it may have let me/us down.
I sent a message from the forum...I believe I selected email vs PM, with a copy sent to my email. I never got my cc, so I have to ask if you got your copy.
If not, then I'll send again directly out of my email...I have your email address from before, but didn't think to look for it when I sent the one a bit ago. I got stuck in the convenience factor, but it may have let me/us down.
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944_Jim- Diamond Member
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Hey Jim,
It came in the form of email and I replied. Let me know if you got it.
It came in the form of email and I replied. Let me know if you got it.
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Cribbs74 wrote:I have had this thing kicking around my shop just shy of forever, looks to be .15-.19 size. I have heard they seriously rob power, which most mufflers do to some extent. I decided to take it apart and look inside. The first thing I noticed before I broke it down is the wall as soon as the exhaust leaves the engine, horrible for back pressure. The exhaust then has to route around this wall where it is forced to exit through four small holes 2 wide and 2 narrow. Not the best design to say the least. I suppose you could open up the exit holes and possibly smooth the wall edges. Or... you could toss it in the trash bin like I did.
Ron, just saw this thread now. You have the Tatone EM-4 Calumet muffler listed for .09 - .19, but it is definitely too small for a .19. I put one on an Enya .09-III after grinding away most of the internal baffle, just haven't tested it.
I had another EM-4 that I put on a Testors .19 McCoy Red Head, but it ran hot both with baffles. I then ground down most of the baffling, still ran hot. Last, I drilled additional holes to make it less restrictive thinking I'd end up with a tongue muffler, but then it was almost as noisy as running the engine without.
The EM-4 is best for the smallest size, .09 and with baffles ground, I believe, but still need to test.
The Calumet is probably a lost cause, because it adds undesirable weight and has too small an expansion for proper effect. OTOH, the Tatone .09-.19 Peace Pipe muffler works well if you target it for the lower end. I used it successfully on an Enya .09-III TV, cut the bark but not much power. But, I wouldn't use it on a .19 engine, too small a chamber, however the .29-.40 Peace Pipe would probably work fine on a .19 engine.
I bench ran the larger .29-.40 Peace Pipe on an Enya .19-VI TV without problems, just don't have a plane yet to use it on. Photo shows comparison, the .09-.19 PP is definitely chambered too small for the Enya .19.
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
The Peace Pipe has a lot of weight cantilevering off of the cylinder.The outlet is too small as well.Even though it has the lip on the underside to assist in support, it's actually grinding against the cylinder which makes black gray oil everywhere on your model. When you find your fuel mileage becoming very economical, you can bet that the muffler is overheating your engine and leaning out. They also constantly come loose. Ron you have the right idea, in the trash can. Straps are a poor way to retain a muffler. Regardless if Enya uses them or not, it puts a lot of strain on the case.
Ken Cook- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Ken Cook wrote: The Peace Pipe has a lot of weight cantilevering off of the cylinder.The outlet is too small as well.Even though it has the lip on the underside to assist in support, it's actually grinding against the cylinder which makes black gray oil everywhere on your model. When you find your fuel mileage becoming very economical, you can bet that the muffler is overheating your engine and leaning out. They also constantly come loose. Ron you have the right idea, in the trash can. Straps are a poor way to retain a muffler. Regardless if Enya uses them or not, it puts a lot of strain on the case.
The authentic Enya muffler straps don't actually contact the bypass side of the crankcase like most strap-ons. They butt up against the rear edge of the exhaust stack and the "loop" of the strap does nothing more than just hold the whole thing in the correct shape.
Before I had an Enya muffler, I used a home made tin muffler on my .09 with a strap of leather around the bypass side of the case to protect it. Worked ok, didn't come loose and never marked the side of the case. On the other hand, the muffler did de-solder itself on a couple of occasions due to the heat and vibration.
I have no pictures, but back in the day, I actually made up a four pipe exhaust stack, swept back at 45º, from an old chrome car aerial. Looked cool, but wasn't functional at all.
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
crash one and let us know how well it works
Ken Cook- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Of course, in any crash situation severe or not, it is even possible for an OEM muffler to tear loose and crankcase be badly damaged.
Mufflers came about when people started losing flying fields due to engine noise complaints. Views changed in our society. Earlier on with the older generation that sacrificed and fought, had a different set of morals considering model plane flying as a healthy activity keeping kids and young adults out of trouble. That changed with the me first generation, where my rights are more important than your rights.
Many of the American made engines prior to the mid-1970's were not designed to be fitted with mufflers. The Testors Series 21 is a good example. Testors may have had a muffler available but I never saw it.
Then too, with a sense of humor, I am proud of my muffler mounting system although never yet tested in flight on an overweight engine (McCoy .40 BH) with an overweight YS salvage muffler (put in the found this bit from a crash some years back anyone who wants can have salvage box at the field).
There is no perfect universal muffler mounting system. Even the Foxes went through design evolution on their OEM bolt on muffler mounting systems.
Mufflers came about when people started losing flying fields due to engine noise complaints. Views changed in our society. Earlier on with the older generation that sacrificed and fought, had a different set of morals considering model plane flying as a healthy activity keeping kids and young adults out of trouble. That changed with the me first generation, where my rights are more important than your rights.
Many of the American made engines prior to the mid-1970's were not designed to be fitted with mufflers. The Testors Series 21 is a good example. Testors may have had a muffler available but I never saw it.
Then too, with a sense of humor, I am proud of my muffler mounting system although never yet tested in flight on an overweight engine (McCoy .40 BH) with an overweight YS salvage muffler (put in the found this bit from a crash some years back anyone who wants can have salvage box at the field).
There is no perfect universal muffler mounting system. Even the Foxes went through design evolution on their OEM bolt on muffler mounting systems.
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
I would say, if a muffler is a requirement at your field then by all means find one that works best for you. If it’s not a requirement then don’t bother with them. If it hurts your ears put some ear plugs in!
I can’t imagine they are required at M.A.D.S are they George? Pretty remote flying field. I flew at your old field numerous times without one.
Anywhere I fly there is never a requirement to have one so it’s a no brainer for me. Some newer engines are designed to be used with a muffler or tuned pipe and are quite functional. The problem comes in when you try to adapt a muffler to something that was never designed to be used that way. I guess in a perfect world it would be optional
I can’t imagine they are required at M.A.D.S are they George? Pretty remote flying field. I flew at your old field numerous times without one.
Anywhere I fly there is never a requirement to have one so it’s a no brainer for me. Some newer engines are designed to be used with a muffler or tuned pipe and are quite functional. The problem comes in when you try to adapt a muffler to something that was never designed to be used that way. I guess in a perfect world it would be optional
Cribbs74- Moderator
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Yea i don't have to use them so one less pain in butt , actually i like to make as much noise as i can for my beloved / noise neighbors
getback- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Cribbs74 wrote:I would say, if a muffler is a requirement at your field then by all means find one that works best for you. If it’s not a requirement then don’t bother with them. If it hurts your ears put some ear plugs in! I can’t imagine they are required at M.A.D.S are they George? Pretty remote flying field. I flew at your old field numerous times without one. Anywhere I fly there is never a requirement to have one so it’s a no brainer for me.
Ron, basically it's the nerdy part of me (was an "A" student in high school, opted for the mechanical engineering program after serving 3 years with Uncle Sam in his troop club (Army) getting my degree in 1981), I just had to give it a try. For RC, back pressure is needed for a good idle on most engines. The Tatone Peace Pipe muffler for my 1965 Enya .09-III TV was the right ticket.
And yes, MADS RC field doesn't require mufflers, of course you and I are blessed. I don't fly half-A or CL with mufflers. But, step away, there are places that do.
Cribbs74 wrote:Some newer engines are designed to be used with a muffler or tuned pipe and are quite functional. The problem comes in when you try to adapt a muffler to something that was never designed to be used that way. I guess in a perfect world it would be optional
Of course, there are caveats to situations not engineered by the OEM in adapting after the fact. We live in an imperfect world. Most would simply use a more modern engine that is already designed to use a muffler. In control line, many prefer using for example, a .19 - .28 Schneurle ported engine to replace the legacy .29 - .40 cross scavenged engine for the 400 - 500 sq. in. wing area stunt aircraft. The aftermarket tongue mufflers are made to bolt in place like OEM.
And, judging by the engines designed for mufflers that have had their exhaust ports torn apart in a crash by the OEM muffler, that even a perfect situation doesn't make for a perfectly unharmed engine in a crash. The difference was back then one would simply go to the hobby shop or manufacturer, order a new crankcase and other parts to replace crash damaged, then be back in business.
I certainly wouldn't aftermarket muffle a prized engine that one might risk ruin in flight. But most of what I have legacy or not is only of value to me. It will all probably wind up as an estate sales lot to be parceled on Ebay anyway.
GallopingGhostler- Top Poster
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Ummm. I just want to play with it a bit. After that, it will most likely end up being a key fob, like a larger model engine piston is on my spare TR6 key.
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944_Jim- Diamond Member
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Re: Tatone muffler internals
Today I downloaded a PDF of Model Airplane News magazine, December 1949 edition from AeroFred. Interestingly on Page 32, Article "Air Ways - News of Model Experimenters From All Over the World" had this to say 75 years ago, and of all places from West Virginia, Bob @rsv1cox 's stomping grounds:
Even 75 years ago, modellers in various localities were having a problem of people complaining about model airplane noise and some proposing to add mufflers to modelling engines.Dec. 1949 MAN wrote:WE HAVE received a letter from R. H. Frasher, Jr., president of the Kanawha Valley Model Builders, Inc., of Elkview, W. Va. Mr. Frasher passes along a note of warning to other clubs which are operating in localities unfriendly to model aviation work. His club arranged a lease on a good flying field and spent over $300 in developing it for their use, to say nothing of the un counted hours the members labored on the project.
Following a few complaints from local citizens (doubtless “narrow minded,” as Mr. Frasher states), the city council took action resulting in the probable closing of the field for model use, and total loss to the club of all the money and time they put into it. Mr. Frasher thus says with considerable authority, “It would be our advice to any other club contemplating building a model field to build it outside the city limits by all means, because sooner or later someone will take it upon themselves to stop the flying.”
The complaints in the case cited above came, as have virtually all similar complaints of which we have heard, because of NOISE made by the engines. We cannot understand why model fliers who are being forbidden to fly in built-up localities all over the country cannot realize that the roar of motor, which is sweet music to the model builder’s ear, is just plain racket to those who have no interest in model flying. We have been urging model builders to use mufflers for a long time. Way back in our July, 1948, issue we gave full details on constructing several simple types of mufflers that have proven very effective.
Model builders usually start raising complaints as soon as the subject of mufflers is mentioned. They say mufflers add weight and wind resistance, cost a lot of money, and worst of all—cut down the power of the motor. Aren’t they willing to trade a bit of added weight and wind resistance for permission to fly their muffler-equipped ships in built-up areas? The other objections are totally invalid; the article in July, 1948, Model Airplane News, showed how mufflers can be built for a few cents. That leaves only the question of a cut in motor power.
Well, you doubters, even this has been solved! A prominent motor manufacturer now offers a muffler that actually increases power! This muffler is designed upon a principle used to quiet the motors of full size planes. What’s more it is small and light, and low-priced besides. So, whattaya say, you fellows who are losing your flying fields—give mufflers a trial and you will find it a sure way “to win friends and influence people” in. favor of power modeling.
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