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Post  Cribbs74 Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:51 pm

I have had this thing kicking around my shop just shy of forever, looks to be .15-.19 size. I have heard they seriously rob power, which most mufflers do to some extent. I decided to take it apart and look inside. The first thing I noticed before I broke it down is the wall as soon as the exhaust leaves the engine, horrible for back pressure. The exhaust then has to route around this wall where it is forced to exit through four small holes 2 wide and 2 narrow. Not the best design to say the least. I suppose you could open up the exit holes and possibly smooth the wall edges. Or... you could toss it in the trash bin like I did. Wink

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Post  NEW222 Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:26 pm

Funny about that. I had wanted one of those for a long time as I thought they were the Cadillac of mufflers. Honestly besides the prior statement, I did also and still do think they look neat. Apparently I did not know much. How in the world does that one attach though? I thought they were just flat on the edge that meets the exhaust port.
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Post  Cribbs74 Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:45 pm

The flat lip resides under the exhaust port and there are two threaded holes and the strap attaches to them.

I didn’t actually test it so I wouldn’t take what I said as gospel. It’s just from a design standpoint it’s lacking.

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Post  dckrsn Mon Feb 15, 2021 7:58 pm

Interesting, Ron.
I bet it traps lots of heat. Probably
quiets the engine, but at a big loss
of power.
Bob
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Post  944_Jim Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:14 pm

Ron,
If you haven't taken the trash to the street, I'll pay to ship it to me. The muffler that is...not the trash.

This is one of those things I wanted to play with as a kid. Call me "wishing I was 10 again."

Thanks in advance...but don't freeze over it.


Last edited by 944_Jim on Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clear up the reference)
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Post  Cribbs74 Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:44 pm

Yeah, I haven’t emptied the shop trash. I can dig it out. It’s still in the positive temperature wise. Besides, you are worth the effort.

RonTatone muffler internals 36d15410


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Post  NEW222 Mon Feb 15, 2021 9:17 pm

Just another question for this inquiring mind that wants to know.... Is there/was there a gasket between the two halves, or is it just castor residue? Or are they made well enough that they do fit together very nicely?
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Post  Cribbs74 Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:19 pm

I dugit out of the trash Jim.

Chancey, no gasket. Decent fit, it would probably help if it was a bit leaky.

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Post  NEW222 Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:44 pm

Thank you for the information.
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Post  davidll1984 Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:50 pm

Y never tink of using one Now u just Convince myself that this piece is not very good for performance
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Post  getback Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:08 am

I to have a few of those around , there was a discussion about this before and kindy let me down to find it was a power leach . Like Jim (the dumpster diver) lol i would like to run and see if or what improvement could bee made !?! Happy New Year
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Post  getback Tue Feb 16, 2021 7:28 am

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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:29 pm

Not a peace pipe. Just a regular ol Tatone muffler.
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Post  944_Jim Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:47 pm

Ron,
I sent a message from the forum...I believe I selected email vs PM, with a copy sent to my email. I never got my cc, so I have to ask if you got your copy.

If not, then I'll send again directly out of my email...I have your email address from before, but didn't think to look for it when I sent the one a bit ago. I got stuck in the convenience factor, but it may have let me/us down.
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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:02 pm

Hey Jim,

It came in the form of email and I replied. Let me know if you got it.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:04 pm

@Cribbs74 wrote:I have had this thing kicking around my shop just shy of forever, looks to be .15-.19 size. I have heard they seriously rob power, which most mufflers do to some extent. I decided to take it apart and look inside. The first thing I noticed before I broke it down is the wall as soon as the exhaust leaves the engine, horrible for back pressure. The exhaust then has to route around this wall where it is forced to exit through four small holes 2 wide and 2 narrow. Not the best design to say the least. I suppose you could open up the exit holes and possibly smooth the wall edges. Or... you could toss it in the trash bin like I did. Wink

Tatone muffler internals C222c210

Ron, just saw this thread now. You have the Tatone EM-4 Calumet muffler listed for .09 - .19, but it is definitely too small for a .19. I put one on an Enya .09-III after grinding away most of the internal baffle, just haven't tested it.

Tatone muffler internals Tatone14

I had another EM-4 that I put on a Testors .19 McCoy Red Head, but it ran hot both with baffles. I then ground down most of the baffling, still ran hot. Last, I drilled additional holes to make it less restrictive thinking I'd end up with a tongue muffler, but then it was almost as noisy as running the engine without.

The EM-4 is best for the smallest size, .09 and with baffles ground, I believe, but still need to test.

Tatone muffler internals Enya0912

The Calumet is probably a lost cause, because it adds undesirable weight and has too small an expansion for proper effect. OTOH, the Tatone .09-.19 Peace Pipe muffler works well if you target it for the lower end. I used it successfully on an Enya .09-III TV, cut the bark but not much power. But, I wouldn't use it on a .19 engine, too small a chamber, however the .29-.40 Peace Pipe would probably work fine on a .19 engine.

Tatone muffler internals Big_vs12

I bench ran the larger .29-.40 Peace Pipe on an Enya .19-VI TV without problems, just don't have a plane yet to use it on. Photo shows comparison, the .09-.19 PP is definitely chambered too small for the Enya .19.
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Post  Ken Cook Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:08 pm

The Peace Pipe has a lot of weight cantilevering off of the cylinder.The outlet is too small as well.Even though it has the lip on the underside to assist in support, it's actually grinding against the cylinder which makes black gray oil everywhere on your model. When you find your fuel mileage becoming very economical, you can bet that the muffler is overheating your engine and leaning out. They also constantly come loose. Ron you have the right idea, in the trash can. Straps are a poor way to retain a muffler. Regardless if Enya uses them or not, it puts a lot of strain on the case.
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Post  Oldenginerod Wed Feb 17, 2021 11:37 pm

@Ken Cook wrote:                The Peace Pipe has a lot of weight cantilevering off of the cylinder.The outlet is too small as well.Even though it has the lip on the underside to assist in support, it's actually grinding against the cylinder which makes black gray oil everywhere on your model. When you find your fuel mileage becoming very economical, you can bet that the muffler is overheating your engine and leaning out.  They also constantly come loose. Ron you have the right idea, in the trash can. Straps are a poor way to retain a muffler. Regardless if Enya uses them or not, it puts a lot of strain on the case.

The authentic Enya muffler straps don't actually contact the bypass side of the crankcase like most strap-ons.  They butt up against the rear edge of the exhaust stack and the "loop" of the strap does nothing more than just hold the whole thing in the correct shape.  

Before I had an Enya muffler, I used a home made tin muffler on my .09 with a strap of leather around the bypass side of the case to protect it.  Worked ok, didn't come loose and never marked the side of the case.  On the other hand, the muffler did de-solder itself on a couple of occasions due to the heat and vibration.
I have no pictures, but back in the day, I actually made up a four pipe exhaust stack, swept back at 45º, from an old chrome car aerial.  Looked cool, but wasn't functional at all. Laughing
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Post  Ken Cook Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:59 am

crash one and let us know how well it works
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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:24 am

Of course, in any crash situation severe or not, it is even possible for an OEM muffler to tear loose and crankcase be badly damaged.

Mufflers came about when people started losing flying fields due to engine noise complaints. Sad Goodbye Views changed in our society. Earlier on with the older generation that sacrificed and fought, had a different set of morals considering model plane flying as a healthy activity keeping kids and young adults out of trouble. Smoking That changed with the me first generation, where my rights are more important than your rights. Mad

Many of the American made engines prior to the mid-1970's were not designed to be fitted with mufflers. The Testors Series 21 is a good example. Testors may have had a muffler available but I never saw it.

Then too, with a sense of humor, Laughing I am proud of my muffler mounting system although never yet tested in flight on an overweight engine (McCoy .40 BH) with an overweight YS salvage muffler (put in the found this bit from a crash some years back anyone who wants can have salvage box at the field).

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There is no perfect universal muffler mounting system. Even the Foxes went through design evolution on their OEM bolt on muffler mounting systems.
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Post  Cribbs74 Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:06 am

I would say, if a muffler is a requirement at your field then by all means find one that works best for you. If it’s not a requirement then don’t bother with them. If it hurts your ears put some ear plugs in! Very Happy

I can’t imagine they are required at M.A.D.S are they George? Pretty remote flying field. I flew at your old field numerous times without one.

Anywhere I fly there is never a requirement to have one so it’s a no brainer for me. Some newer engines are designed to be used with a muffler or tuned pipe and are quite functional. The problem comes in when you try to adapt a muffler to something that was never designed to be used that way. I guess in a perfect world it would be optional
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Post  getback Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:15 am

Yea i don't have to use them so one less pain in butt , actually i like to make as much noise as i can for my beloved / noise neighbors Devil Beers
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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:49 am

@Cribbs74 wrote:I would say, if a muffler is a requirement at your field then by all means find one that works best for you. If it’s not a requirement then don’t bother with them. If it hurts your ears put some ear plugs in! Very Happy I can’t imagine they are required at M.A.D.S are they George? Pretty remote flying field. I flew at your old field numerous times without one. Anywhere I fly there is never a requirement to have one so it’s a no brainer for me.

Ron, basically it's the nerdy part of me (was an "A" student in high school, opted for the mechanical engineering program after serving 3 years with Uncle Sam in his troop club (Army) getting my degree in 1981), I just had to give it a try. For RC, back pressure is needed for a good idle on most engines. The Tatone Peace Pipe muffler for my 1965 Enya .09-III TV was the right ticket.

And yes, MADS RC field doesn't require mufflers, of course you and I are blessed. I don't fly half-A or CL with mufflers. But, step away, there are places that do.

@Cribbs74 wrote:Some newer engines are designed to be used with a muffler or tuned pipe and are quite functional. The problem comes in when you try to adapt a muffler to something that was never designed to be used that way. I guess in a perfect world it would be optional

Of course, there are caveats to situations not engineered by the OEM in adapting after the fact. We live in an imperfect world. Most would simply use a more modern engine that is already designed to use a muffler. In control line, many prefer using for example, a .19 - .28 Schneurle ported engine to replace the legacy .29 - .40 cross scavenged engine for the 400 - 500 sq. in. wing area stunt aircraft. The aftermarket tongue mufflers are made to bolt in place like OEM.

And, judging by the engines designed for mufflers that have had their exhaust ports torn apart in a crash by the OEM muffler, that even a perfect situation doesn't make for a perfectly unharmed engine in a crash. The difference was back then one would simply go to the hobby shop or manufacturer, order a new crankcase and other parts to replace crash damaged, then be back in business.

I certainly wouldn't aftermarket muffle a prized engine that one might risk ruin in flight. But most of what I have legacy or not is only of value to me. It will all probably wind up as an estate sales lot to be parceled on Ebay anyway.
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Post  944_Jim Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:15 pm

Ummm. I just want to play with it a bit. After that, it will most likely end up being a key fob, like a larger model engine piston is on my spare TR6 key.
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