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The Piper Cubs other half Empty The Piper Cubs other half

Post  rsv1cox Sat May 07, 2022 2:18 pm

Ya, rainy day. Gives me a chance to catch up.  I have been waiting for this one.  

I'm stripping it down to nothing but balsa and bass wood.  Berryman the engine, derust the lead-outs/landing gear, fill in the missing balsa, build the tail section and bell crank control rod.  Thinking Howards wax instead of gloss clear.  

The Piper Cubs other half P1013167
The Piper Cubs other half P1013166
The Piper Cubs other half P1013168
The Piper Cubs other half P1013171
The Piper Cubs other half P1013169
The Piper Cubs other half P1013170

Look Ma, high compression head!

The Piper Cubs other half P1013172
The Piper Cubs other half P1013173
The Piper Cubs other half P1013174
The Piper Cubs other half P1013176
The Piper Cubs other half P1013175

Dunked it.  I mean held it under warm running water while scrubbing it with dish detergent.  Nothing.  Hit it again with Simple Green.  Nothings touching this stuff.  I don't think clear would stick so it gets Howards wax.  Put it on the heater to dry. Brutal, no way to treat vintage balsa.  

The Piper Cubs other half P1013177
The Piper Cubs other half P1013179

Gotta wait. Too wet to mess with it.  Ordered two new chains for the big Husqvarna, wore the cutters down to nubs. Will be here Monday so you guys get a break.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013178
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Post  andrew Sat May 07, 2022 10:03 pm

Can't wait to see how this engine turns out! It looks like it will be a tough nut to crack (or clean up).
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Post  rsv1cox Sun May 08, 2022 1:11 pm

andrew wrote:Can't wait to see how this engine turns out!  It looks like it will be a tough nut to crack (or clean up).

Nah Andrew, piece of cake!  Ya right, you were correct, a tough nut to crack.  But it came with a big surprise.  

Rusty and dirty, I could barely see it.   Gave it a bath in Berryman's, warm soapy water rinse.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013183
The Piper Cubs other half P1013182

The first indication that this was a different cylinder came when I used the Cox wrench to remove the cylinder, well heated of course.  The fork end was extremely sloppy, a very loose fit in the exhaust ports.  Can't have that so I buffered the fork with masking tape.  Still way too loose, more masking tape.  The cylinder has to come off so I bumped the wrench with the palm of my hand and  loosened it.  

Disassembled and dumped the cylinder in Evprorust along with the other rusty parts.  After a couple of hours in the stuff, I took it out and cleaned it.  I was looking for a cylinder number - 1 etc. when I noticed writing under the exhaust port - P 40, checked under the other exhaust port P 40 again.  Wow, I have a P-40 engine.  Explains the high compression head and the widened exhaust ports.  

The Piper Cubs other half P1013184


Whoever had this balsa P-40 somehow got ahold of a Cox P-40 and took the engine for it.  Pretty smart considering all the mistakes he made putting the plane together.

Gave me the incentive to spend a bit more time building this engine.  

The Piper Cubs other half P1013186
The Piper Cubs other half P1013185
The Piper Cubs other half P1013187

The Piper Cubs other half P1013189
The Piper Cubs other half P1013188

The Piper Cubs other half P1013192

The Piper Cubs other half P1013190
The Piper Cubs other half P1013191

It actually looks a whole lot better in real life. Light just catches it wrong. Working on the plane building the tail section etc.
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Post  Marleysky Sun May 08, 2022 1:56 pm

WOW! A P-40 for a P-40!! how Cool. Betcha the plastic P-40 bit the pavement and the kid bought and built the balsa P-40 as a replacement.. I don't know if the "P-40" stamped cylinders are considered rare, but I know I was Happy when I found one in a bunch of engine/parts pile. Small Cox Logo
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Post  MauricioB Sun May 08, 2022 8:10 pm

Friend rsv1cox, let me congratulate you on the beautiful work you have done on the engine. It really amazes me how good it looks.
I like his restoration work, I really appreciate all that he does.
Congratulations!
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Post  NEW222 Sun May 08, 2022 9:40 pm

Another fine and beautiful restoration. One day I hope to be able to do one looking if even only half as good as yours.
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 09, 2022 6:13 am

Thanks guys,

I think its last flight ended in a mud puddle. The nose sections were packed with it, especially between the bass veneer reinforcement and the balsa fuselage. I had to dig it out and using folded over sandpaper between both veneer and balsa smoothed it out and glued and clamped it. I think he then rinsed off the engine with water, hence all the rust. Thankfully the piston closed off the exhaust ports, so the interior was castor protected. Engine has great compression.

Building the tail section this morning. Cloth hinges. I think if I combine black and blue bottles of Testor's enamel I can come close to duplicating the finish. Brush it on with a broom.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013194
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Post  andrew Mon May 09, 2022 9:32 am

You really got a diamond in the rough -- wonderful restoration!!

I've never used Evapo-Rust - does it have any impact on clean metal? I'm also a big fan of Brownell's steel and aluminum black.

I've built an electrolysis tank that I use for rust removal, mostly on gun parts, but it can be used for almost any application. I like it since it pulls rust out of all the pits, but the parts need to be treated immediately on removal.

Again, great job!

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Post  rdw777 Mon May 09, 2022 9:52 am

What a perfect engine for that plane!! Who knows the story behind that… Fun to speculate…Will like to see the finished restore…. I think you’re going to surpass the Cub!!

On your Cub restore thread you posted photos of your CL P-40.., It had yellow wings before you painted OD green… Do I see traces of blue on the fuse?…. I think pre war colors on a P-40 would look pretty cool…. I did a search but didn’t find much… Only this small FF kit,,,

The Piper Cubs other half 2119c210

I may have put something like that on the list…
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 09, 2022 3:43 pm

Yes I first painted it like the image on the box, yellow monokote on the wings and blue Top Flight aerosol on the fuselage.  It got very ratty over time so I stripped it, then I saw a picture like this:

The Piper Cubs other half Roc_p-10

and was hooked. American Volunteer Group, Claire Chennault and the Chinese Air Force markings which I just happened to have.  

Lot's of history regarding the AVG and Indochina.

http://www.aviation-history.com/curtiss/p40.html

Bob
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon May 09, 2022 6:17 pm

You fortuned out Bob, with that hotter (I guess, 2 bypass cylinder?) P-40 branded cylinder engine. Noticed the extra strengthening repair to the engine system, twin nylon mount halves. By contrast my 1973 Sterling Beginner E-III Eindecker used 2 formed sheet aluminum halves, which was sufficiently rigid to mount the engine and landing gear.

Had the nylon weakened sufficiently to require the gussets?

A retro make of the Midwest Mini Warbird could simply use Bernie's beige plastic engine mount, ditto for Sterling's Beginner Series. Or, do like Carl Goldberg or Walt Musciano did and nicely gusset the ply bulkhead mount. I bought 2 from Bernie for future projects.

Anyway, just speculating, wondering what the master restorer will be up to next.
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Post  rsv1cox Mon May 09, 2022 6:42 pm

Yes, double bypass cylinder.

Still fighting this one.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013196
The Piper Cubs other half P1013197
The Piper Cubs other half P1013195

Lipstick on a pig would be too kind!

Mailman came today. More good stuff plus new parts from Matt. It's not all tragic.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013200

There is contamination in there that even the EPA hasn't identified yet.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013199
The Piper Cubs other half P1013198
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon May 09, 2022 9:48 pm

rsv1cox wrote:Yes, double bypass cylinder. Still fighting this one.
The Piper Cubs other half P1013195

Lipstick on a pig would be too kind!
Thanks for clarifying the cylinder.

The artisan, a perfectionist, critiques whilst roughing out the form, taking shape under his watchful eyes. Words sometimes harsh are uttered as torn and twisted metal is removed, replaced by the action of anvil and hammer where it takes shape, blow by blow, metal being formed into shape, with the careful ra-ta-tat of the riveter fastening each panel in place. The ugly bewitched form, no longer lost in the rice patties of Shanghai, is slowly being transformed into a maiden of grace. This Flying Tiger will live on.
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Post  rsv1cox Tue May 10, 2022 6:25 am

GallopingGhostler wrote:
rsv1cox wrote:Yes, double bypass cylinder. Still fighting this one.

Lipstick on a pig would be too kind!

Thanks for clarifying the cylinder.

The artisan, a perfectionist, critiques whilst roughing out the form, taking shape under his watchful eyes. Words sometimes harsh are uttered as torn and twisted metal is removed, replaced by the action of anvil and hammer where it takes shape, blow by blow, metal being formed into shape, with the careful ra-ta-tat of the riveter fastening each panel in place. The ugly bewitched form, no longer lost in the rice patties of Shanghai, is slowly being transformed into a maiden of grace. This Flying Tiger will live on.

Confucius/Aristotle/George
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Post  rsv1cox Tue May 10, 2022 1:33 pm

Finished except to find correct sized wheel collars and a proper propeller.  Had to use a pusher prop on short notice.  

Wing is made up of two sections east/west, tabs and slots.  Factory?  I don't know.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013202

As intended, watts and all.  Found the correct size wing weight washer in my old MG parts cabinet.  Once held the suspension together.  Left it rusty.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013204
The Piper Cubs other half P1013203
The Piper Cubs other half P1013201
The Piper Cubs other half P-40_w10

Begs the question, Why?

Dunno,it's what I do!
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Post  Ken Cook Tue May 10, 2022 3:32 pm

Bob are you aware that your P-40 is a Carl Goldberg plane? The two piece wing with the tab and slot as you referred to it was a Goldberg trademark. The Stuntman 23 and Swordsman 18 wings are assembled in the same fashion. I have the P-40
kit somewhere in here. I have a closet in the corner of the basement and I believe it's in there. I even have the .35 size version.
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Post  rsv1cox Tue May 10, 2022 3:49 pm

Ken Cook wrote:Bob are you aware that your P-40 is a Carl Goldberg plane? The two piece wing with the tab and slot as you referred to it was a Goldberg trademark. The Stuntman 23 and Swordsman 18 wings are assembled in the same fashion. I have the P-40
kit somewhere in here. I have a closet in the corner of the basement and I believe it's in there. I even have the .35 size version.

George thought it was a Midwest kit. But those tabs and slots are unmistakable. I never noticed them until the other day.

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Post  rdw777 Tue May 10, 2022 4:42 pm

That came out very nice,… Shiny up engine on the old war horse frame….I’d vote to send it to one of the CL flyers for video if it were possible… P-40 engine on the P-40 vet… Pretty awesome…. And thanks btw for confirming the pre war color scheme…. Just thought they look cool that way…. Little more obscure to find examples though…
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Post  GallopingGhostler Tue May 10, 2022 5:11 pm

Agreed, Robert. Ken, are you sure? CG did not have a bottom cowl profile extension, and CG's wingspan was 18-in, not 21. Regarding interlocking tab construction to extend longer/wider surfaces, was common among the manufacturers as a part of kit design to fit a compact box.

The Piper Cubs other half S-l64010
Sample photo from E-Bay


Last edited by GallopingGhostler on Tue May 10, 2022 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Ken Cook Tue May 10, 2022 5:34 pm

George your correct. I don't have the P-40 in Midwest. I have the P-39 and the ME-109. They do use that style of doubler and lower cowl. Something else that I think is a giveaway here, it's the bellcrank. That's the style Midwest used . The Midwest plastic engine mount was crap. They generally broke within the first few flights. They were like a polystyrene vs a nylon and they rapidly broke just from vibration. I can see that happening which could've been the situation here and someone replaced it.

I was just looking for the Goldberg P-40 I have. While were on the subject, I just thought about my friend I grew up with. His father was a P-40 pilot in the AVG. He was also a P-51 pilot. His last name was also Hill but not the famous Tex Hill. He did know Tex though. He went on to work for Westinghouse after the war and did incredibly well for himself. My friend moved to NC about 8 years ago. He came up north to visit about 3 months ago and he located a great picture of his father servicing his P-40. I have to say it was truly amazing to see that. All of the others in the picture were giving a thumbs up for the camera.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Tue May 10, 2022 5:49 pm

Ken Cook wrote:The Midwest plastic engine mount was crap. They generally broke within the first few flights. They were like a polystyrene vs a nylon and they rapidly broke just from vibration. I can see that happening which could've been the situation here and someone replaced it.
Thanks Ken for a bit of history and clarification. Just as you deduced, that was my feelings, too, as to why the modeler strengthened the motor mount area.

The beauty of, if and when we create our retro builds, is we can make a minor correction to fix a deficiency, without detracting from its spirit.
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Post  rsv1cox Tue May 10, 2022 6:09 pm

Ken said:

The Midwest plastic engine mount was crap. They generally broke within the first few flights.

Might explain the homemade engine mount on this plane.  Looks like two pieces of molding cut to fit and wood screwed on.   I kept it all even the screws to maintain the previous owners' construction.  When I got it the landing gear just floated.  I epoxied it on along with the two pieces of molding from the inside.  It won't float again, but the engine still is removable.

You can see the side pieces in this photo.  I put them in Berryman's to remove the castor goo.

The Piper Cubs other half P1013205

Better picture.

The Piper Cubs other half Better10

I thought I would get some grief about my L shaped bell crank rod vs. Z bend.  Got the Z on the other end but I was too lazy to get out  a pair of needle nose to do the other end.  I have Z bend pliers but they just don't give me a proper Z.  

Made sure that L bend was long enough so it would not come out though.  Smile

I wish each of these planes could talk and tell their history.  The P-40 builder, first, second, third? did some amazing things both positive and negative.  The most positive, that P-40 engine.  The negatives, that mud puddle, the paint scheme, the engine mount, the.................
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Post  GallopingGhostler Tue May 10, 2022 8:22 pm

rsv1cox wrote:Ken said: "The Midwest plastic engine mount was crap. They generally broke within the first few flights."

Might explain the homemade engine mount on this plane. Looks like two pieces of molding cut to fit and wood screwed on.
It may also explain why the series was short lived, lackluster in sales.
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