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Old MccCoy and K&B

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Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:16 am

Well, my father and I went to a friend that just about goes to every swap and yard sale there is. He once got me a box full of lines and handles. There was also a K&B Torpedo Greenhead .19. He thought it was junk because the nva was gone and there was what looked like a pencil broken off in the venturi. So he tossed it in with the box. He only wanted $20 for the box so I jumped on it. I managed to the the Torpedo cleaned out and installed a Fox nva and ran it. I immediately noticed a little extra click it had turning over. It was just before TDC. I took off the backplate and the conrod looks like someone gouged it to death. It is not uniform at all and is not suitable to run extensively. So I need to make a new one. I was wondering if anyone had any advice on metals to use and tolerances. Or if someone would be willing to try it themselves.

Now on to the McCoy experience. Yesterday my dad, brother, and I went to the guy again and he had a nice looking CG Buster. It had a McCoy 35 on it. The engine felt like it was shot. But the plane was structurally sound. So me and him pooled some money and got it. We got home and had all sorts of issues with the metal perfect tank. So we ditched it for a sullivan 2 oz tank. Or original intention was to run a tank through the McCoy and then fly. But with how much trouble we had we decided to just go for it. My dad flipped it and I stood behind it to tune it. I got it hitting rich and then ran for the lines. I would have made it even richer but when we were starting it moments before it would cut out even at a lean run. Well, I picked up the handle hoping I had made a good decision in using the smaller spacing handle and got ready. He looked at me and I gave him the nod. He tossed it off and that plane jumped around like it was on fire! It was an absolute animal! I have never seen a plane turn direction that many times and not stall or smack the ground! For the first quarter lap it spent next to all time vertical! And under 30 degrees in height! My dad yelled/laughed "Wow"! I managed to level it off (barely) and just flew it full speed. Super aware that if I sneezed or shook the plane was a gonner. I twitched at one point and it started to get wild again. Unfortunately the McCoy broke into a lean run. I should have pointed the plane nose up to tune it. When it finally cut out that plane had the most beautiful glide I had ever seen. I brought it down to a nice landing doing the customary flip on the grass. I checked the engine and it had actually gained compression. I think the previous owner used too much green death (Cool Power). I have always been kinda scared to fly the bigger CL planes. I can do the .15 size but the .35 gave me the shakes (I shake violently when nervous or a little cold ). I now love the big planes. This demon drove out all the fear! We were driving home and I said "Well, I think I earned my go nads today." My dad "Yeah, actually I am surprised that you have your legs that close!" Our plan was to let him fly it first. He was sure that if he had it would be a bag of balsa. I have more experience flying than him. I think if I had used the bigger line spacing that plane would have been too much. Now I am wondering, would a McCoy 35 go good on a Voodoo? Also, does anyone recall if it is supposed to have a plastic bushing in the crankpin? Ours did. The pin was also hollow.

Rolla
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Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:16 am

Rolla , it certainly sounds like you guys are having a good time. This indeed is what it certainly is about. Flying relaxed is the biggest part while getting nervous is certainly going to get you in trouble. Larger planes above .15 size generally fly easier and run very well. I always advocate the use of larger planes to learn vs smaller as they're slower and can easily be tamed unlike a twitchy small plane. The Mccoy however can literally self destruct in one flight. One lean run and I've totally wiped the piston fit out. Some will last a long time as quality control was all over the place with these.

Let's assume yours is going to last. Run all castor fuel with no exceptions or you will make it a nice book end. I would use no less the 25% all castor. Even if the engine had somewhat of a abused life, running all castor fuel will build varnish back onto the piston and it has a healing affect on the engine. You can add additional castor to your existing fuel and fuel calculators on the web can easily answer you questions. Early Mccoy's used a brass crank end pin. The nylon is better and yes it has to be in there. The Mccoy will certainly fly the Voodoo. Ken
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Kim on Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:43 am

shawn cook wrote:

I would use no less the 25% all castor. Even if the engine had somewhat of a abused life, running all castor fuel will build varnish back onto the piston and it has a healing affect on the engine. Ken

"BEHOLD !!!! The HEALING POWER OF CASTOR !!!!!"

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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:49 am

Kim wrote:
shawn cook wrote:

I would use no less the 25% all castor. Even if the engine had somewhat of a abused life, running all castor fuel will build varnish back onto the piston and it has a healing affect on the engine. Ken

"BEHOLD !!!! The HEALING POWER OF CASTOR !!!!!"

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Pack up the babies and grab the old ladies!!!
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  fit90 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:49 am

everyone goes
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Kim on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:22 am

everyone knows
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  gcb on Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:58 am

Godsey3.0 wrote: ...Well, I picked up the handle hoping I had made a good decision in using the smaller spacing handle and got ready. He looked at me and I gave him the nod. He tossed it off and that plane jumped around like it was on fire! It was an absolute animal! I have never seen a plane turn direction that many times and not stall or smack the ground! For the first quarter lap it spent next to all time vertical! And under 30 degrees in height! My dad yelled/laughed "Wow"! I managed to level it off (barely) and just flew it full speed. Super aware that if I sneezed or shook the plane was a gonner. I twitched at one point and it started to get wild again...

Rolla

Sounds like it may be a tad tail-heavy. Huh...
Did you check the balance? Usually it should be between the leading edge and 25% back from the LE. Of course the more rearward, the more sensitive.

Another possibility is controls too sensitive. How much do the controls deflect, and how much bellcrank movement does it take for full deflection of both up and down?

Or perhaps BOTH?

BTW, my two McCoy .35's have the plastic button. I understand that many later ones shipped without them.

George
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:08 pm

Hey guys, would have replied later but had a band thing. I will not be here from 7:20 to 1:00 everyday this week. Last day is Friday. Then I am done.

We did balance the plane. It was between the leading edge and the spar. The spar on this plane is slightly more forward. It has a short (Span) but long (Cord) wing. Rather fat. My dad found the kit on ebay and it was supposed to fly with a .15 to .35.

The deflection on this plane was 45 degrees. I would have thought that it would stall it. But it was capable of using all of that throw. That McCoy seemed to have quite a bit of power and was plenty for it. Sadly, the plane will probably not fly again. The dope covering is proving to be very brittle and the paint is seeping off in some areas. If I were to get plans then another would definitely go together.

My dad told me to keep my money that was going into the deal. He said I can still use the McCoy though. We do a community pile thing between us. If one has a project in need of an engine and the other has one that will work, and not already occupied, then it can be used. As long as it is within reason. He cannot go and try my Super Tigre 46 in his PT 20 Trainer. One has the right to try and keep their engine safe.

So, after the 1/2a Combat wing is finished I will then move over to the Voodoo or a large trainer plane. I need to get used to the size and the feel. If I build the Voodoo it will just sit until I then build a trainer. What can I use for a pressure line on the McCoy? I imagine surgical tubing of appropriate size. Thin enough walls. Not too big. Will it be able to tune nicely on pressure? Or should I get a different nva?

Rolla
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:33 pm

Actually, I am considering skipping the little 1/2a Combat Wing and just building the Voodoo. I like the way it looks and I will have plenty of time to Cut/Build it. I think My LHS has Sig bellcranks. I think they are nylon. Solid white. Three inches. I have a wood list written down to get me started cutting.

I thought it over and I actually have enough money to buy wood for the Voodoo and the Cheap Imitation. So two builds will comense before the weeks end!

Can anybody name this plane? We have one too and never could find plans. http://www.ebay.com/itm/CONTROL-LINE-SOLID-BODY-AND-WING-BALSA-MODEL-AIRPLANE-KIT-NAME-UNKNOWN-/271023686294?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1a454296
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:03 pm

Rolla, the success to flying and becoming good at it is to do it over and over. Not worrying about equipment is the most important. When you suggest the plane is never going to fly, this is not good as you decide to build another. We all know what it takes and the time it takes to build a new plane. You therefore become reluctant to fly it hard in order not to crash it. In order to be pro efficient at flying, one must crash. The next step is to be able to repair. If the silkspan is shot, peel off all the open bays knock down the sheeted parts with sandpaper and put iron on covering over the wing. The Voodoo although may seem cool is going to be pretty over the top for a pilot who's never flown a wing before.

Buying props and the correct ones at that and keeping a simple but easily designed plane in the air is the most important. The basics are key here and they alone can certainly add up monetarily opposed to building new models. If the paint is peeling due to oil soaking, let it ride and keep flying until the plane is unflyable. Simple planes like a Ringmaster are good choices as well as the Goldberg models. The Sterling kits however have less pieces and are considerably less intricate if you need to copy them as opposed to the Goldberg kits. The Voodoo has a internal spar I call the rib ripper. The Ringmaster has this as well. If you want the longevity of the plane do not put these spars in. They do absolutely nothing other than add weight and break every rib in the plane upon impact. In the case of the Voodoo, I substitute the sheeted trailing edges for solid and omit the spars I'm talking about. Ken
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:34 pm

That is exactly why I intend to build a trainer as well. If you have not guessed yet I love building. I have flown about 4 different wing plans as 1/2a. Another reason I will not fly this plane is it is not actually mine. It is my fathers. He would be totally willing to let me fly it but I do not wish to disappoint him upon the event of a crash. So I was going to build the Voodoo to fly later. I would beat the 1/2a wing to death. Progressively making it touchier and touchier as my wrist got used to it. While that flying is going on I (Or my dad) would build a trainer(ish) plane. It will most likely be this. It shows different engine combinations for different flying abilities. It also shows a suggested prop. I could also possibly build a plane for the Torpedo. That is if I can get a new con rod made.

I opened up the McCoy and flushed it with alcohol. I think it washed away some of the castor in the cylinder as compression went down some. But it was a good thing I did it. A lot of crud came out. Especially out of the nva. That explains the sudden lean out. Hopefully starting will be easier as well.

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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  fit90 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:39 pm

that Brother Love's show.

Man we are old!
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:46 pm

fit90 wrote:that Brother Love's show.

Man we are old!

Is that why the "Everyone knows everyone goes" thing was? I liked Brother Kim's Traveling Salvation Show. I got a tired chuckle out of it. Insomnia decided to kick me in the head last night. I shut everything down at 10:30 pm. Got all comfy and closed my eyes. We have a pendulum clock that dings on the half hour and it counts out the hour on the hour. I listened to that thing ding away all night. Last ding I remember was at 1:00 a.m. I had to get up at 6:00a.m to practice marching with the band. I am now a little tired. sleep
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  fit90 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:50 pm

That's it. A Neil Diamond song. Probably the early to mid 70's.
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:34 pm

Can someone explain to me what a pacifier fuel system is?
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:06 pm

Years back, the choice of material for bladders were pen bladders or pen sacs which were used for ball point pens. The pen had a small like balloon you filled with ink and installed inside. These worked but they would readily fail from breaking. Latex pacifiers from baby bottles were becoming popular due to the availability. Generally when the pacifier was inflated it inflated quite large almost the size of a tennis ball. Many times you would see metal cans glued into the wing half in and half out with a hole in it. I can recall the can of the times (Snack -Pac pudding cans) It looked like the plane had a giant speed bump on it. This was popular back in the late 60's. The advantage was low pressure which assists needling. The disadvantage as with any Latex product is that is breaks down fairly quickly and bursts.

Tanks have many disadvantages and providing consistent fuel feed is one of them. This is especially true when you have a fast turning plane like a wing. Keeping fuel to the engine at all times is key. The pacifier was filled via syringe just like a modern day bladder and inflated. Around the mid 70's the Nemesis and like planes were using internal bladder tubes made from rocket cardboard tubes with balsa end caps and surgical tubing for bladders. Here is a pic of a Scarinzi Super Satan, http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1500256take note of the outboard wing with the hump. The pacifier is installed inside the can. Ken
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  lousyflyer on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:28 pm

This is an old Tatone Pen Bladder. Pretty simple rubber tube closed on one end. About 5/16 diameter.

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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:39 pm

Hm. The guy on RCGroups had a lot of nice looking planes. I would like to try the tube design for holding a bladder. Only problem I am having is what to use, how do I position it, and how do I got it so that there is a hole for the bladder to come out and a hole for fuel from burst bladder to leave.
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:59 pm

I may try to do the Demon. I am having a ton of trouble printing off the Voodoo plan. In truth, I mainly like the wing look. If it wrecks it is easier to fix as well. I was hoping to find something with a fatter airfoil to slow it down. The Scorpion is another option.
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:52 pm

Rolla, an easy way to incorporate the tube into the wing is to use either a cardboard tube with balsa end caps or a plastic polyethylene tube. Fluorescent light guard tubes T-8 size work well for bladder compartments for .25 or .35 size planes. A tube 4 " long would be sufficient. The Demon has a very thin airfoil which is diamond shaped. The widest section of the Demon is directly in front of the midspar and the T-8 tube just squeaks in there. In the case of the Voodoo, a Monokote cardboard tube just makes it as well. Here is a pic of my Flite Streak with my T-8 bladder tube. My tube is quite long due to the engine on it. It consumes fuel as fast as it's poured in. I cut the ribs out and encapsulate the bladder compartment within them. Just scroll down: https://www.coxengineforum.com/t2293p60-baby-flite-streak-build-thread_it-flies You can see the hole in where the bladder goes. I don't provide drain holes. In the event you use a cardboard tube, liberally applying thinned down polyurethane to the tube is a must. Ken


Last edited by shawn cook on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  RknRusty on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:06 pm

Surgical tubing surpasses all of the early materials. Modern pacifiers are shaped funny. No need to re-invent the wheel with inferior materials. One inch of surgical tubing holds a couple of ounces of fuel in an elongated shape instead of a big old ball. I use a 3/4 inch bladder on my .051 and never fill it all the way up. I have a baggie full of replacement bladders all ready to plug and play. I've shown my method of securing the bladder under the wing with the nylon mesh laundry bag cloth. It's fairly aerodynamic and quick to change. If you want, I'll post the picture again.

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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:28 pm

The thing I will have trouble with is getting that hole to out the bladder in. Does the tube just but up against the sheeting? How is it sealed to prevent from spreading between the space between tube and sheeting into rest of the wing?

I know how to do the tube in 1/2a. A 1 in diameter tube will usually stick out. The covering wraps over it and a hole is cut through covering into tube. The covering seals the holes. That is what I am having trouble seeing happening with the bigger stuff. Getting that tube to meet nicely enough to be sealed to the plane.

Edit:Looked at pic closer and the tube does not appear to go under the sheeting. I also saw you were at the top of the rib. Not the middle. Does the covering seal it up?

Sorry if I am being difficult. Only CL flying I have ever seen is youtube and my father. I have been flying longer than him. No one around here flies much CL. I do not know of any clubs. Only CL planes I have seen in person are my own and my fathers. He was wanting to upgrade in size as well.

Edit 2: I looked at pic again and saw wood between tube and covering.
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Godsey3.0 on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:37 pm



I guess you just make sure you seal that spot well. I may have to just wing it. Ha! Pun.
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  gcb on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:48 pm

Godsey3.0 wrote:That is exactly why I intend to build a trainer as well. If you have not guessed yet I love building. I have flown about 4 different wing plans as 1/2a...
...I opened up the McCoy and flushed it with alcohol. I think it washed away some of the castor in the cylinder as compression went down some. But it was a good thing I did it. A lot of crud came out. Especially out of the nva. That explains the sudden lean out. Hopefully starting will be easier as well.


Be careful of starting too many planes. As you progress, your building skills improve and you may find yourself with some partlially built skeletons that you hesitate to finish because they are not up to your present building skills. If you already have a primary trainer, stick with that one because you soon outgrow round-and-round and will want something that can maneuver better.

I would suggest something like a Skyray 35 as your next building step. If you can't afford the kit, perhaps you can locate some plans. I would suggest for that size, use a 4" bellcrank with the pushrod in the hole closest to the pivot (minimum movement). That way you can adjust sensitivity at the control horn if necessary. I would start with the outer hole on the control horn. You should not need more than 25-30 degrees of deflection.

You can also, as you have discovered, use line spacing at the handle to control sensitivity of control movement.

Anytime you get an engine, flush it out. If it is used, also check that the wrist pin is not frozen to the connecting rod or you can get excessive wear between the piston and wrist pin.

As someone previously mentioned, there is merit to buying a plane already built because you don't have a lot of emotional involvement that would make you scared when flying it. You must also check that you are not buying someone else's troubles. Look it over for warps, weak points, etc. Often it is a good plane that someone has outgrown and went to something better.

Good luck.

George
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Re: Old MccCoy and K&B

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:50 pm

Your certainly not being a pain asking questions if that is what your thinking. Asking is good. Pictures always don't show the up close details. And you were observant in your findings that my tube isn't centered. I did this for the sole purpose your asking. The Flite Streak has a considerable airfoil so room isn't a problem. Once the tube was in place, I placed soft balsa blocks around the perimeter of the hole of the bladder tube. I then sanded the soft blocks just below the spar and the leading edge. I then placed a piece of sheeting over the top. It doesn't go the entire distance of the tube just a few inches. Again, this isn't necessary. I then smeared epoxy around the hole. Even if a bladder bursts, the tube really gets the majority of it. I had entire wings fill up with fuel. I don't like that to happen but it does. This happens in the clear covered F2D combat planes you see nowadays. If there compartment fails, the wing is a giant fuel bag. Fuel spray really and hardly ever finds it's way into the hole. Air does and I certainly get one heck of a howling whistle at times. Ken
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