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Post  RknRusty Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:49 pm

I need to sew tonight so I can test fit all the working parts before starting the final assembly and finishing. I like the single stitches in picture 3.
The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 Dscn1610
If I pre-drill the holes and cover the 1/16(hard) balsa with Monokote and then stitch it, do you think that will be strong enough? Maybe an additional strip of mono along the stitch line on each side? I'll use a piece of cardboard, about a needle-width, as a spacer to get the gap even across the joint.


Last edited by RknRusty on Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Ken Cook Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:51 pm

Yes It will be strong enough. That's absolutely how I did it on the Brodak Baby Clown ARF. Somewhere on this forum I have a picture of that elevator as well. Here it is. Ken

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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:13 pm

Rusty,

You had better post some pics soon. I'm getting restless!
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Post  RknRusty Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:16 pm

cribbs74 wrote:Rusty,

You had better post some pics soon. I'm getting restless!
Soon, Grasshopper, soon.

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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:02 pm

RknRusty wrote:
cribbs74 wrote:Rusty,

You had better post some pics soon. I'm getting restless!
Soon, Grasshopper, soon.


lol!

Don't make me snatch that pebble from your hand!
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Post  RknRusty Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:18 pm

Okay, as requested, pictures. But first an essay:
For some reason it doesn't look a helluva lot different than it did when I first cut out the tail booms. I'm glad I don't have to answer to a boss as to why I have spent 3 or 4 hours countless nights and a few afternoons, for how long? And ain't even close to flying it yet. Building the nose was, for me, a major operation. So was stripping the old paint, glue and repairs. Had to re-rib it and relocate the bellcrank. I also had to widen the sheeting 1/2" to make a place next to the tail booms to stick the covering. I guess I'm a slow worker. I think doing a whole scratch build would have been quicker.

So tonight I marked the hinge holes 1/8" from the edges of the stab/elev and located the control horn screw hole. Then covering it with Monokote took a while. It's a double thickness of Mono along both sides of the hinge line. I got two of them sewn and realized this method is self-gapping. I only got two stitches done but it looks like they are going to be extremely free moving. I like that. I can knock out the rest of the hinges tomorrow night. Note, in the pictures the wingtips are scotch taped on just for the pose. Them, the flaps and tail booms all go on last. I'll cover the wings before I put any of that stuff on. As soon as the elevator is done, I'll sand-fill-sand, epoxy-fuelproof the front end, and prime and paint the old fuse section and nose, Monokote the booms and glue it all together. Yes, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Here is the stab/elev and its two hinges I sewed. There will be eight hinges.
It looks a little off from side to side. I'll deal with that somehow.
Click the pic to see the uncropped image.
The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 10301210

The flaps will mesh with the overlapping wingtips
Click the pic.
The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 10301211

Another pose
Click the pic.
The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 10301212

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Post  Ken Cook Wed Oct 31, 2012 4:51 am

Rusty, the stab looks great. I wouldn't worry about the stab being slightly off left to right. You did a fine job. Ken
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Post  Kim Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:44 am

Fantastic!!! "Lightning Bean"!!!!
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Post  RknRusty Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:18 am

Kim wrote:... "Lightning Bean"!!!!
Hey, good name. If she flies right I may put that on the wing.

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Post  Kim Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:21 am

Coolo! And how could it NOT fly good??!!!

I hereby evoke the time-tested adage: " If it LOOKS good...it'll FLY good " !!!!!
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Post  RknRusty Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:46 pm

Kim wrote:Coolo! And how could it NOT fly good??!!!

I hereby evoke the time-tested adage: " If it LOOKS good...it'll FLY good " !!!!!
Hmmm, glad to know that, it certainly doesn't apply reliably to women. Rolling Eyes But it must mean I still have a lot of work to do. Laughing I did actually manage to marry a serious babe, so I apparently get lucky sometimes.

On the the other hand, the Monokote looks so good on the stab, I think I can save myself some trouble priming and painting by using it on other parts too. The rest of the rear end will be easy to coat and maybe the nose end too, if it will stick over the epoxy coating.

I'm starting to ponder color schemes. I have white, blue and red left over from the BFS. Maybe white wings with red starbursts. Overlays is one thing Monokote is good for as opposed to Ultracote. You can do overlays with no heat, just Windex. It worked on the Streak, and so far no peeling.

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Post  Cribbs74 Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:57 pm

Hey Rusty it looks good! Have you calculated the wing area?

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Post  RknRusty Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:04 pm

cribbs74 wrote:Hey Rusty it looks good! Have you calculated the wing area?

Somewhere early in this thread, but I only guessed at the measurements and accidentally low-balled it. Even then it was well within the adequate stunting range, and that was before I added flaps to the plan. I'll re calculate it tonight and post the numbers. I'm headed out to the shop now. I'll be back in in 2-3 hours. See ya then.

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Post  Mark Boesen Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:54 pm

Ken Cook wrote: I can tell you first hand, hardly anyone uses CA hinges on control line planes due to them being too stiff. This is the case even with .40 size airplanes. Using them on a 1/2A plane would not be a good idea. They have a memory and always want to place the elevator back to neutral and they just don't suffice well for control line flying. The CA wicks all the way through the hinge causing them to get even stiffer and eventually ends up cracking. They also require a slot deeper and wider than a barrel hinge. In the event you hit the ground, I've seen CA hinges just rip out of the thin wood we use for control surfaces leaving a almost unrepairable surface. This also happens with barrel hinges sometimes. I've seen this many of times for those who have used them on ARF models that provided them. Mark raised the concern of fuel impregnation. After I sew the hinges I use a toothpick and typically use a dot of Ambroid (white glue would work equally as well) on each thread top and bottom. This also holds the stitching and seals it. If done correctly, it looks better than cloth over and under style in my opinion. I have several models built that way stitched in different fashions and I could provide pics. The other aspect is that 1/2A control line planes generally don't have as long as a life span as larger models as they just get run to the mill. What I mean by this is that it's probably better to use a type of hinge style that improves flying characteristics vs. cosmetics. Ken

Hi Ken,

All good points, but I forgot to mention that on 1/2a's I'd cut the hinges to appx. 1/4" wide, probably not quite as free as figure '8' threads, but quick, easy and looks good, and never had one come loose with normal usage, I used this a lot on 1/2a pylon racers. Larger ships for C/L stunt used pinned hinges, later builds using wood glue to set. Photo below shows a 1/2a Nobler I designed with flaps using cut down CA hinges. The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 2012-112
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Post  RknRusty Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:48 pm

Back in from the shop. I calculated the wing area and loading since Ron asked about it. I came up with a wing area of 113sq inches which includes the newly added flaps. And I guesstimated the AUW at a fat 8 ounces. It probably won't weigh that much, but that gives me a wing loading of 10.1oz/sq foot if I understood the calculation. Someone may be able to tell me if that sounds right.

I finished the stitching. I got the hang of it more as I went. The first one I made with the tie-off knot on the wrong side. I wanted them all on the un-moving stab side, but I'll leave it. I think they came out nicely. I didn't have any white glue but I had some clear setting 30 minute epoxy and thinned it way down with alcohol. I put a tiny drop on each knot and its tails. I didn't get any into the holes. I put the control horn on too. So here are the pictures of my handiwork.

The top side
Click the link https://servimg.com/view/16760059/94
The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 Sam_2010

The bottom side. The knot on the far right is the one I put on the elevator side, but it should hold.
Click the link https://servimg.com/view/16760059/95
The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 Sam_2011

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Post  Ken Cook Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:36 am

Rusty, your getting to good at this. cheers Looks great, will work great, well done. I know my example didn't have it, as I'm using the same control horn. Just watch that it doesn't pull through. In my example (red stab with white stripes) you can see that horn has been jockeyed over to the side. Anymore, I just use a slug of 1/64th ply to stiffen the elevator under the horn. Ken
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Post  Kim Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:06 am

You can also make your own ply control horns as in the Ringmasters and other old-school designs. Once I get the geometry and throws figured out. I cut a chord-wise slot, starting about 1/8th back from the elevator's leading edge. You can extend the trailing edge of the horn out at a flatter angle to spread the stress.

Some super-light fiberglass patches and epoxy locks and braces it, and you'll have a control horn that'll never turn and probably out-live the airplane.

I've also carefully CA'd in a piece of brass tubing to take the pushrod...but then, sometimes, I just like to fiddle around with stuff!

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Post  RknRusty Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:10 am

Thanks for the tips on the control horn. I am aware of it needing the extra ply to spread out the pressure, and I've even noted it as advice in some other members' build threads. It's not permanently affixed yet, pending my purchase of some 1/64" ply. All I had last night is 1/16" ply and basswood. On the Streak and original Bean repairs, I threw beauty to the wind and put an epoxy fiberglass strip on the bottom side and 1/16" basswood boss on top.

I'm really happy with my hinge job. It's not as floppy-free-moving as I thought it would be, but it's still plenty free with equal range of motion in both directions. I could get some white glue to plug the holes against oil. But I don't want to stiffen it any more and I'm a thorough cleaner after flying anyway. Besides it's probably good for years of use like it is now. Thanks for teaching me this method. As I move on to other builds I'll try other stitching patterns, but I think this one looks nice and professional.

Did anyone look at my wing loading numbers to see if they look to be in proper order?
I came up with a wing area of 113sq inches which includes the newly added flaps. And I guesstimated the AUW at a fat 8 ounces. It probably won't weigh that much, but that gives me a wing loading of
10.1oz/sq foot if I understood the calculation. Someone may be able to tell me if that sounds right.

When I finish this project I'm going to post a summary of What I Learned from this Build. During the Streak kit project, I learned a lot about how to build a plane to fly right, and more is coming to me as I do this job. I know now why some of my earlier planes weren't quite as cooperative in the air as I had hoped. Lots of little things add up that can turn a beauty into a kludge. I hope I'm not speaking too soon. One of my growing-up tips I repeatedly reminded my son of over the years is to Never think(talk) about how good you are at something while you're doing it. Another thing I already knew, but try to take to heart is, when I hear my inner voice saying something to the effect of That'll do, it's time to back off and take a break.

So, onward we go. In the next couple of days it's going to start looking like an airplane.



Last edited by RknRusty on Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:28 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post  RknRusty Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:42 pm

Todays progress. Slow as usual, but it's all still falling right on the centerline.

Flaps and wingtips. I will add a couple of braces top and bottom of the tips.

https://servimg.com/view/16760059/96
The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 Sam_2012

https://servimg.com/view/16760059/98
The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 Sam_2014

EDIT: This picture added after I prettied her all up for the club meeting.

The Refried Bean Build-It flies - Page 3 Sam_2015

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Post  RknRusty Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:48 pm

All the major parts are together now. The tail booms are covered in white Monokote and along with the stab and elevator are all epoxied to the plane. The only other part than it needs is a control horn. I located it too close to the inboard boom, so instead of re-locating it, I need to make a left handed horn so it's not so close. I don't want it jamming in mid maiden and destroying the whole project. I have a sheet of aluminum I'll cut one out of.

The last steps are to paint the old center remains of the fuselage, fuelproof and paint the nose, and cover the wings. I need to come up with a nice design for its markings. I have red, white and navy blue Monokote and every color of paint that exists. I might do some sort of star-burst rays of blue or red on the wings and something to match on the booms and tail parts. Any ideas? Pictures?

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Post  JPvelo Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:55 pm

I think a military paint scheme would be pretty cool on that airplane.
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Post  RknRusty Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:00 am

I'm looking for some pictures but haven't found anything yet. I'll dream up something. Speaking of dreaming, it's about that time. I'll be lucky to get any flying time this weekend. Time for holiday house cleaning.
DAMMIT!
The weather will be perfect, of course.

Goodnight, see y'all tomorrow.

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Post  JPvelo Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:03 am

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Post  Cribbs74 Sat Nov 10, 2012 7:31 am

Must be nice we have 20mph+ winds all weekend here.

The Refried Bean looks like it's coming together. Did you say you were doing flaps?
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Post  RknRusty Sat Nov 10, 2012 8:05 am

cribbs74 wrote:Must be nice we have 20mph+ winds all weekend here.

The Refried Bean looks like it's coming together. Did you say you were doing flaps?
Faux flaps, only to increase wing area. It now has 133sq" of wing. A little more than the original wing. Take a close look at the trailing edge in the last picture and you can see the flaps. If the plane weighs 7oz AUW(a fat guess), the wing loading will be about 7.6oz. Not bad, a little more than before. It'll have some more lift during loops and maneuvers.

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