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Post  Kim Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:03 pm

So, WAY back in one of the 1970's Billie Jack movies, our hero heads out into the desert on what, in later movies, would be described as a Vision Quest.  After a few days of denying himself food and water, he eventually attains a level of nirvana that allows him communication with people and critters no one else can see.

I ain't got a desert handy, and so, must rely on mowing my yard in 90 degree temps with maxed out humidity to reach a higher level of consciousness.  It works.  Staggering back into the shop for more gasoline, I was either suffering from double-vision, or a VERY High-Def inspiration, as I suddenly envisioned my innocent little Lazy Bee with a Hammer-Head Twin bolted to it's nose.

Why let the 3-Meter Bird of Time have all the multi-engine fun?!

With my Gilbert Engine box being the easiest one to reach, I decided to bolt up a couple Thunderheads...an .07 and .11.  Not sure how much asymmetrical thrust is gonna happen between them, but figure as long as they're both cranked up and pulling, the Bee's big rudder should be able to square things up.

Still need to finish up my "Fred Flintstone" engine mounts, but ought to have it going here shortly.  There WILL be video !!!

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 2_47

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 3_37

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 1_39

The L.B. has had several engines stuck on it's nose, the biggest being the O.S. 10FP that dragged it around for so many years.  If Andy's chubby little plane survives the Gilberts, I think I'll try this swap-meet Cox .15 on it next.  Oughtta put some ZIP in the ole dog!

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 1_40


Last edited by Kim on Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:41 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Post  pkrankow Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:09 pm

er...how do you start that?

I expect video of the starting too!
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Post  Kim Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:21 pm

pkrankow wrote:er...how do you start that?

I expect video of the starting too!
Phil

Very Carefully!

And yes...video from start to cras...er...landing !
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Post  roddie Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:25 pm

Hey Buddy!.. You NEVER cease to amaze me! The Lazy Bee has always appealed to me. Those Gilberts.. I don't know much about em'.. I don't see throttles on either one. What type of glow-head do they use? (it doesn't look like a std. plug) Are they still available? Are these control-line/free flight engines which run at WOT? It looks like you have an 8 x 3 prop on the .11? What's on the .07? Do you run Sig Champion fuel in them? I LOVE the exhaust headers!

You know; since I've been here at CEF for the last year or so.. there hasn't much (if any) discussion on expansion chambers/tuned pipes. Have you tried them?

BTW.. "Fred Flintstone" is one of my mentors!  lol! 
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Post  Aero Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:26 pm

Oh my......A Killer Bee    

Asymmetrical torque...hmmm. Depends on how ya mount 'em. Very Happy
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Post  dckrsn Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:38 pm

I'm thoroughly impressed and stunned, Kim.
That said...a wing pod or two could make it
a 3 or 4 banger. Yikes!
Looking forward to the report, should be fun.
Bob
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Post  getback Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:55 pm

Glad wee in N.C. are not the only ones Sufferen the humid crap that's going around ... YES this should be interesting  start to finish..........Roddie I may be able to comfort you with some chamber run give me till it cools the fu$$ off some  Very Happy Very Happy DAMMIT!  Kim u PM roddie about the PS mounts hes ready to turn some loose  Very Happy Very Happy Babe Bee Eric
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Post  Kim Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:49 pm

roddie wrote:Hey Buddy!.. You NEVER cease to amaze me! The Lazy Bee has always appealed to me. Those Gilberts.. I don't know much about em'.. I don't see throttles on either one. What type of glow-head do they use? (it doesn't look like a std. plug) Are they still available? Are these control-line/free flight engines which run at WOT? It looks like you have an 8 x 3 prop on the .11? What's on the .07? Do you run Sig Champion fuel in them? I LOVE the exhaust headers!

You know; since I've been here at CEF for the last year or so.. there hasn't much (if any) discussion on expansion chambers/tuned pipes. Have you tried them?

BTW.. "Fred Flintstone" is one of my mentors!  lol! 



Yo Roddie !

I really don't know much about these engines. They were sold individually AND with RTF control liners in the 1960's. Mark has a section on them in his vast collection over on the .049 Collector Group.

I got four engines a few years ago from some fellow that had come across a mixed lot of them. This one just went without a bid a few minutes ago:

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 4_36

They've got their own glowheads, and I've read where there's not enough metal up on top to thread them for regular plugs, so I'm hoping these two hold up.

They just run 'till they're out of fuel, and I had them on a stand a while back, but can't find photos or video of it.

The .74 is gonna get a trimmed 6-3, and the .11 will get a chopped-on 7-4. I'll run each one and probably mess with a couple types on each to see what these things will turn.

The one thing that MAY give me trouble is the Gilberts' high-positoned spray bars. If they act like they don't want to draw from the Bee's regular tank, I'll rubberband a film-cannister tank up high between them.

I'm figuring Sig 15% ought to do it, but we'll see.

I just like the retro look about the things...looks like something "The Rocketeer" would use if he flew model planes! I'm sure some of the racing guys here have used tuned pipes, but I've never used them.

I'm probably gonna make a run over to the little airport at Cairo to fly MY version of the "Killer Bee"...since it might need some "wiggle room" !
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Post  Kim Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:59 pm

getback wrote:Glad wee in N.C. are not the only ones Sufferen the humid crap that's going around ... YES this should be interesting  start to finish..........Roddie I may be able to comfort you with some chamber run give me till it cools the fu$$ off some  Very Happy Very Happy DAMMIT!  Kim u PM roddie about the PS mounts hes ready to turn some loose  Very Happy Very Happy Babe Bee Eric

Yeah, I was complaining to my Uncle about how, in the winter, we wait for some warmer air, then want it to cool down when it DOES get here !!

Can't gripe TOO much though...I've had a bunch of flyable days this year...and have been able to make use of them. Starting to fray my little flying machines...gonna HAVE to get back to BUILDING something eventually!

Will contact Roddie !

Thanks !
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Post  Kim Wed Aug 20, 2014 9:19 pm

Aero wrote:Oh my......A Killer Bee    

Asymmetrical torque...hmmm. Depends on how ya mount 'em.  Very Happy

Mah BIG rudder ain't skeered 'o no torque...asymetrical or othawise !!!!

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 5_26
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Post  Cribbs74 Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:52 pm

That's a mighty big rudder!
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Post  roddie Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:59 am

Cribbs74 wrote:That's a mighty big rudder!

yaw.. I mean yeh, it sure is.. plus; it's leading edge swings out, like the old WWI Fokker "D" series fighters.. making it even more effective!
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Post  Kim Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:58 am

roddie wrote:
Cribbs74 wrote:That's a mighty big rudder!

yaw.. I mean yeh, it sure is.. plus; it's leading edge swings out, like the old WWI Fokker "D" series fighters.. making it even more effective!

"Meet the Fokker!"
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Post  Oldenginerod Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:01 am

Kim.
The Gilberts should be happy on 15% nitro & lots of castor.  They have a ball & socket piston like a Cox.  6X3 is about right for the .074 but I'd probably use a 7X3 on the .11.  They pull good revs for a side-port with a small prop but really drop off the torque if they can't reach their comfort zone.  

There were about 3 different heads for the .074.  I've seen a number of pictures of the heads drilled and tapped for a standard plug but you have to get the right head.  One is too soft, one has too large hole when the centre post is removed and one must be ok.  It would take some experimenting to find the right one.  The .11s had little trouble with their heads, so the .074 heads with the same type construction should be good.  The soft die-cast .074 heads, which can't be tapped out, are very fragile and easily blow.

Starting, use a starter.  These start in reverse is seems 80% of the time. They run happily that way, but has the potential for some real interesting torque reactions on the Lazy Bee.  Laughing 

Tank must be kept low. The original tank for the RTF planes sat down underneath the rear of the engine directly under the spray bar.  Fuel was drawn straight up from below.  They draw well and are easy to choke with the rear venturi for starting, but they will flood if the tank is level with the venturi.  With the angle of the intake, fuel will happily syphon until the crankcase is full.  So keep it low and let it draw.

Hope this helps and doesn't just confuse things.

Rod.
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Post  Kim Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:26 am

This is Great Info!  Thank You Rod !!!!!

STILL Learning Stuff Kim
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Post  Kim Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:33 am

Hoping Mark doesn't mind...I copied this frame from his .049 Collectors Group on Yahoo.  If you go there, click on "photos", then "album" and scroll through the great stuff 'till you get to the Gilberts.

This is SOME REAL retro stuff !!!!

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 6_23
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Post  Kim Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:59 am

The silly things run!  After gingerly testing the Gilberts' glow plugs and finding them good, I bolted the old engines up to my equally old EZ-Just test stand, and dragged my table out into the early morning humidity.

The .11 Gilbert started IMMEDIATELY, shooting the over-prime out it's little stacks and taking off.  As per Rod's suggestion to use a starter, I had the Hornet standing by, but the .11 started with just a casual flip.  I let it run gurgling for a while before taking it up to peak...which turned out to be  around 12K on it's 7-4 prop and 15% Sig.

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 1_41

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 2_48

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 3_38

The .074 was a little more cranky, starting backwards (as Rodney had warned) but finally lit off in the right direction with a flip-start, turning a very reasonable high 12-to-13 K on it's Cox 6-3...also on 15% Sig.

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 3_39

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 2_49

So, attention now turns back to that slab of ply, hardwood, and epoxy that I so generously call an "engine mount"!

Not a bad way to start the day !!!!!!!!
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Post  Oldenginerod Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:27 pm

12,000 is probably a little below the .11s comfort zone. Slip a 7X3 on and you should pick up over 1,000 rpm. It may actually be better to run it slower than the .074 to balance it out. Why didn't you go for 2 engines the same size, or was it just the challenge of achieving the impossible?
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Post  Cribbs74 Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:33 pm

Kim is a wiiiiiild and craaaaazy guy!

He also has a ton of experience so I am sure he will pull it off.

Ron
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Post  Kim Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:07 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:12,000 is probably a little below the .11s comfort zone.  Slip a 7X3 on and you should pick up over 1,000 rpm.  It may actually be better to run it slower than the .074 to balance it out.  Why didn't you go for 2 engines the same size, or was it just the challenge of achieving the impossible?


Hey Rod !

I'm still digging around for a 7X3...may have to run to Tailwinds and see if they've got one in stock.

As far as my reasoning for using different-size engines when I could just have easily matched them up:  I COULD claim that I seek the intellectual stimulation of being the catalyst in the successful union in an aerodynamically asymmetrical relationship...

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 7_21

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 7_110

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 8_110

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 8_19

Lazy Bee with Twin Gilbert Engines 9_21

Or...it could be that I'm just weird...
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Post  pkrankow Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:11 pm

symmetry is overrated

Phil RC Plane 
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Post  Kim Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:13 pm

pkrankow wrote:symmetry is overrated

Phil RC Plane 

Too True !
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Post  getback Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:10 pm

Man I didn't know you could talk all that aerodynamic stuff too I ll take pic no. 2 she is slick Smile I was wondering the same thing about the engine size differences, but just figured Kim new what he was doing  Huh...  Very Happy
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Post  Oldenginerod Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:29 am

I wonder what effect the propwash from the forward prop might have in the performance of the trailing engine, noticing that they overlap?
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Post  Kim Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:37 am

getback wrote: I just figured Kim new what he was doing  Huh...  Very Happy

Oh, you good-natured, grossly over-generous soul!
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