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Post  944_Jim on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:14 am

Hi guys,

I scored a BHM Challenger kit. It requires .15-.2(x) engine. I suspect.Ill go low end, and am considering a Mecoa sourced K&B .18 Aero CL engine (ABN).

Anyone here have.any experience with one?

Anyone here have a Medallion .15 that can weigh it for me?

Thanks to RSV_Bob, I have an Enya weight chart.
As you probably guessed, weight is a concern.

This kit is a long way off from the bench, so I still have lots of time to weigh my options ( yeah, a pun!).

Thanks in advance!
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Post  getback on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:32 am

4.4 OZ. K&B Aero .18 Ptdc0085
4.8 OZ. K&B Aero .18 Ptdc0086
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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:01 am

Hey Jim,

What do you want out of this model? Are you planning on stunting or just a lazy Sunday Flyer?

Generally I always go towards the max side of powerplants as it’s easier to detune than to tune up.

Usually on the plans they have an engine drawn in that will work with the design. If I don’t like/want or have that engine I select something that is similar in weight and provides the power I want. I am also brand loyal so I generally default to engines I like Very Happy

Anyway the Aero .18 a little heavy and most reviews I have read say it lacks good power. A lot of users say it is a very reliable and easy starting engine.

So it all comes back to what you want the model to do.

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Post  944_Jim on Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:24 pm

Gentlemen,

Thanks for jumping in. It appears the Aero is heavier than the Medallion .15.

I was hoping to take advantage of flaps in order.to do loops, fly inverted, and horizontal eights. Verticals would be nice, and if I can do it, then overhead 8s.
I've got a long way to go before I can keep up with my goals...my fault, not the ship!

This will be a long trip...I still need to break my Scientific P-40 on loops and inverts. To be clear, it is time for me to get beyond up/down and wing-overs!

Again, thanks. If anyone else has anything to add, I'm all ears.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:16 pm

I see, want to know how many planes I destroyed learning to fly the pattern?  Embarassed

I have been flying since 2010/2011 mostly non-stop until this past year. I am just now starting to fly full fuselage models. I am sure some folks here might remember my early on flying reports and constant building. I was busting a lot of planes as I was pushing myself.

That’s me though, the only reason I bring it up is profiles can take a little more abuse. If I could offer a suggestion build something profile,  .35 size and don’t make it pretty. Once you are doing loops, inside and outside and inverted everything will come much easier. You don’t need flaps to do what you want to do. They don’t hurt, but it’s just another thing to repair.

I am super excited to hear you are ready to push ahead. Post often about your flying exploits, lot’s of guys here helped me out and they will probably do the same for you. It’s a lot of fun to share your flying outings and it helps to come down from the excitement you will be feeling.

It really becomes a lot of fun when you start stunting!

Not trying to discourage you from building the Challenger, just don’t want you to get heartbroken when it crashes.

Ron
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Post  Ken Cook on Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:16 pm

I will add that flaps are not needed to make the model fly well. They can hurt the model depending on size. They take away wing area when operated. Many many models are flapless and fly absolutely fine without them. If your looking to learn the maneuvers you suggested, I highly recommend a model without them. YOUR going to crash it. You want a model that builds easy and has less parts. If you can fly inverted, you can fly ALL of the maneuvers. Inversion is the most necessary requirement. After that, your mind will tell your hands what to do. A Flite Streak for instance will out fly almost every commercially produced model to date and has no flaps.
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Post  944_Jim on Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:49 pm

Thanks guys!

Eric, I think you've shown me the lightest solution!

There is an MDS .18 on RCG that caughty eye, but I would have to wire the throttle or have someone make a venturi for it. Then Mecoa's Aero just looks cool, besides having a venturi already. I've got my ears on an Enya in Louisiana, also with a venturi.

But a Medallion .15? It may be the lightest, simplest solution...time to watch evil-Bay to see what they fetch! I need the Challenger in hand to see how much room there is.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:02 pm

Wish I knew you wanted an Enya. I practically gave 2 .15’s away because nobody would buy them.

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Post  Jason_WI on Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:49 pm

OS .15 CVA with a venturi would have power.

What about the AP .15 yellow jacket? I guess with a muffler mod they aren’t bad.

With the Medallion .15 I think the ball socket version may be best. I had one with the wrist pin and it seized the piston abruptly. I believe others have had the same issue.
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Post  944_Jim on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:11 pm

Ken Cook wrote:  I will add that flaps are not needed to make the model fly well [paraphrased for brevity by 944_Jim]...A Flite Streak for instance will out fly almost every commercially produced model to date and has no flaps.  

Thanks Ken. I believe that too! I also wanted to step up from profiles and go slightly bigger. Until the opportunity for the Challenger popped up, I had planned on a Keil Kraft Radian...they look an awful lot alike. I like the full-size plans of the Challenger, but that is just too much plane for my Hobby Closet! Worst part is I have a selection of engines too large for my preferred airframe size, but perfect for a full-scale, flapped Challenger. Don't tell my wife, but to fly a Challenger just cost me 3x more for 25% less plane. Shocked

Now the BHM version is smaller, so I thought it was just a scaled down version. And while I wait for a box of pre-cut wood to arrive, I'm starting to look for power plants...and so I've been taking closer looks at box art for engine sizes. I also hoped to see prop sizes so I could narrow down engine choices. Looking even MORE closely at box art pics and Worthpoint pics, my belly sank. No picture of the BHM model shows flaps!

Too late now...for a little less money I could have gotten the laser-cut eBay KK Radian clone kit and have an on-hand grand selection of 1/2A engines to choose from. Or even scaled up a much more cheaper scratch-built Radian to drop in the Big Mig .074 I got from Cribbs74 (Ron), or even a Medallion .09.

Ron,  re: Enyas, ouch!

Jason, thanks for the hints on the Medallion .15. I never suspected different rods/pistons! AP Yellow Jacket...mmmm, been looking at that. I found an older post about a US guy making venturis for that one. I think it is MBS Hobbies... marketed as for racing circuits. I still have a new, in box .09 version with a venturi. I read the .09 is the same engine block sleeved-down from the .15, so I have one engine on hand to begin checking fitment. It may be time to get familiar with the bigger AP offerings (I do like my AP .061).

I really need the kit to arrive so I can check just how much room I have to play with. An older review on SH says it is awfully tight up front.

Oh well, I'll still have a pretty, much larger plane. I consider it bonus points that I'm moving away from WWII profiles. No green, grey, brown, or sky blue for this one! Or, it goes on the 'bay and I'll scratch-build the Radian!
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Post  JPvelo on Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:33 am

Hi Jim,

I’m about to give you advice that will run counter everything you’re being told, but it worked for me. I taught myself to fly inside and outside loops, inverted, overhead eights etc... with a Little Satan running on bladder pressure. The bladder ensures fuel draw and that little airplane will do everything you want it to and it can take an incredible amount of abuse. Master the Satan and when you move up to a .35 size plane it will feel like you’re driving a Cadillac.

This would also be a great choice:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/pdk-llc-laser-cut-kits/combat-kitten-44675/

Just stay away from the tanked cox engines and go with bladder pressure.

Cheers,
Jim
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Post  944_Jim on Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:50 pm

Hi Jim,

I appreciate your input. I know the Lil Satan, having built one in high school. It met a timely (yes, timely) demise at my Active Duty post when I was in the Army. A couple years ago I found the clone plan on Flying lines.org. This was when I was trying to encourage my boys to fly CL. I do know how the CG is too far forward with any Bee up front!
I've seen mesh net used to hold balloons in place along a fuselage (ala Roddie's speed planes). I suppose it would be easy enough to tack one top side, or even cut an inboard bay open and plank it closed afterwards. I.tend to fly alone, so it may be time to make a "barstool, rug and brick" stooge!

K&B Aero .18 Img_2091
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Post  getback on Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:24 am

I have a couple of the Combat Kittens they came in a two for price of one kit lol Although i have flown one with a bee (and it flew good along time ago ) it does need more up front as in power and less as in weight . Good to see the Kits are available from Pat King , Good to hear from you JPvelo (Jim) !! hope things are good with U and your ! Very Happy Flying
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Post  NEW222 on Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:12 pm

Took me a minute to realize it Jim, but I thought your plane was a Widow Satan. After a few minutes on the site, I found the plans and article. I saw it before but kinda dismaiised it. Now I want to build one again.....
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Post  944_Jim on Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:42 pm

Hi Chancey,
Yes, the Widow Satan is what is pictured.

The Challenger arrived today! Man, BHM stuffed the box very carefully. It showed a little bloat from when it was first opened by prior owner(s). I believe this is one if the first kits produced by Capt BlackHawk because the plane on the cover art is black and white! The rest of the box is in color.

First impression opening it? This is enormous! I'm used to 1/2A stuff, and found the BHM Mosquito to be pretty big. I swear this fuselage is 5 inches longr, and the wings 5 inches wider! From top to tail it is 25 inches long. The side view shows a Fox .19...this makes it look like a half of my fist...compared to a Cox .049 Medallion it is Goliath!

Time to search out a power plant. I don't think a Medallion .15 will haul this one around.
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Post  Ken Cook on Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:07 pm

Jim, a FP.15 or a LA.15 would probably suffice just fine in that plane. This may require making a new F-1 and F-2 firewall slightly wider. This is mainly due to the fact that commercially made tanks are slightly wider than what most kit manufacturers make the actual tank compartment width. The Challenger is already plagued with tight quarters to begin with. In making your decision on power just remember the tank volume and width are equally important.
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Post  944_Jim on Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:42 pm

Thanks, Ken.
The wing is HUGE too! I think I'll need to buy some heavier, longer lines. The instructions recommend something like a 9x6 prop. I really need to scan the sheet in. It is getting pretty worn on the folds...I still haven't unboxed the whole kit. It will need to wait for the weekend.

I'm still pretty excited!
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Post  Ken Cook on Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:22 pm

Jim, is this wing 44" wide? I believe I have offered some bad information if so. I would probably opt for a .20-.25 such as a OS FP or LA.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:41 pm

Ken, it should be 33” in span. Your recommendation was good.

More power is always good though. Laughing
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Post  Cribbs74 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:43 pm

What is a Widow Satan? Never heard of that.
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Post  NEW222 on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:28 pm

Ron, it is not much more than teh Lil Satan. Just a few little changes. The plans link is in the link posted below under the heading 'Hey ... It's rolling backwards!', and to teh left of the little red devil.

http://www.flyinglines.org/kb.widosatan.html
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Post  roddie on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:36 pm

Hi Jim, Ron Cribbs mentioned engine-choices in the "upper-displacement" range.. so I thought that I'd mention the Enya .19/4005, although it's a full ounce+ heavier than the Cox Medallion .15 (including the Medallion's exhaust-throttle..)

K&B Aero .18 My_eny14
K&B Aero .18 My_eny15

Enya's tend to be heavy engines.. but you can always "build" to accommodate that extra weight. The pay-off will be in reliability.
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Post  Ken Cook on Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:42 pm

Ron, somehow I'm confusing this model with a plane that Brodak WAS going to offer.
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Post  roddie on Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:15 pm

I got curious and found these images.. ME LIKEY Smile

K&B Aero .18 1_4ef110
K&B Aero .18 1_17c910
K&B Aero .18 Black_11
K&B Aero .18 Blackh10

That's the nicest-looking CLPA model in the .15-.19 glow-engine class that I've ever seen. Smile Thumbs Up
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Post  944_Jim on Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:14 pm

Hi Ken,

Yes, Roddie found the same pics I saw. Oddly enough, I never picked up on this kit being non-flapped (doh!). I wont even try to re-engineer parts, just build per plans. I'm thinking a lemon yellow with a.coordinating color. Anything other than military colors!

When Mr Larry was producing BHM kits in California, I saw this kit and thought "maybe someday." Then he sold the business. The new owners indicated last summer that they were preparing to start production, but that hasn't happened yet. I've watched this kit come and go three times in the 'bay. Then it popped up on SH. I waited a very patient (and long) week before inquiring...the seller was motivated enough that I knew I couldn't have this one slip away. I told my wife I was financing it...by selling off other stuff!

Keep in mind my biggest plane is the BHM Mosquito with two Big Mig .074s. And it is almost a 1/2 foot smaller than this one!

Enyas are heavy? Huh...I've been watching evil-Bay, and even noted the post here regarding the gentleman on Flyinglines doing a sell-off. He has an Enya .19 listed. I have some bigger engines that need to be cleaned and run, and then put up to finance "the right engine." Y'all know I love my Norvels, so I am considering their .15. My concern is going too small. If Norvel.made.a .25, I'd be all in. I also have a lead on a trio of Enyas...a .09, .15, and .19. This makes me think I can sneak up on the right size.

That Enya .19 sounds good. Thanks for the picture/weight. It looks like a little more engine for only a little more weight over the Medallion .15.

Gosh, I do love the way the K & B .18 looks.

There is an old post on RCUniverse (I think) where the fellow talked about his. I need to track him down for details. This kit LOOKS like the big Musciano plan, but there are differences besides size. The big one does bulkheads and stringers on the upper back fuselage and the bottom. This one uses slabs of shaped balsa front, rear and bottom. That's a lot off wood on the backend.
I don't think I need to be overly concerned about a heavy engine. One of you guys mentioned "not much room up front." You got that right! It is going to be a trick trying to hang a muffler off the side of this guy. I may forgo the muffler just this once...what's a big engine sound like unmuffled?

Oh, and the plans look just like Scientific plans. But the little 1/2A planes I built had plans on 17"x22" paper. This one is 22"x36" and also has the full size side view with a little overhead image.
Office Despot quoted $5 to sheet feed it through their scanner. It will be up on one of the plans sites soon enough, but I need to scan the woods to go with it first.

There will be more to follow, and I may ask for more guidance after everything is scanned...that way you'll have real sizes/numbers to work with.
Time to collect and collate engine sizes vs weights.

Thanks again, guys. Without you I could easily make an uninformed, stupid engine decision!
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