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Post  rsv1cox Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:06 am

Freddie sent me this a couple of years ago, something that he picked out of a field in Texas.  Toasty in the extreme and probably represents a British WW1 SE5a although I can't find one with cooling vents like this one has.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011147

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011143
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011142

My first thought was to make an air or tether car out of it, then why not just graft a SE5's wing and fuselage on to it.  But, I don't need another large winged biplane or another green head hanging around.  So, I'm back to square one.  Or...........or just leave it as is and admire it for what it as I have been doing.  I love the thing as is.  I have many related items that members have sent me over the years, and I like to keep them - as received.  That said, I'm itching to tear into that Torpedo.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011145
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011146
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011144

Any Ideas?
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Post  davidll1984 Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:59 am

You did a very nice restoration job look Good now I don't know what to install on A beautiful model from the same period that could Highlight it
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Post  rsv1cox Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:23 am

@davidll1984 wrote:You did a very nice restoration job look Good now I don't know what to install on A beautiful model from the same period that  could Highlight it

Hi David, Thanks, but that's a different K&B, one from my existing collection. I think that Fred's would clean up as well though.

Bob
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Post  Davenz13 Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:00 pm

A diorama perhaps Bob, old wooden box, take one side off, scale saw horses with scale mechanic, painted workshop scene on inside box walls, some ….. Huh...
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Post  rsv1cox Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:14 pm

Well, outside of David this one didn't get a lot of love, then Dave kicked it up a notch.  Understood, there goes Bob again trying to make something out of nothing.  It's what I do.  Smile

Coincidently, I was loading these pictures while reading Dave's response.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011148
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011149
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011150


K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011151

But a diorama?  Something I hadn't though of. Hmm..............

Just three somethings out of nothings that i picked out quickly.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011152
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011153
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011154

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head Se5_pl10
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Post  rsv1cox Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:16 pm

Instead of kicking the can down the road I decided to do something, anything with this thing before I forget about it completely.

Still unsure of it's future, I removed the engine and the fuel tank.  Judging from the engines offset I think this was probably a control line model (maybe not) that crashed nose down into Texas soil plugging the fuel tanks filler/vent tubes with dirt.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011156
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011155
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011157


I didn't even try turning the motor over dunking it instead into a crock pot and heating it up for a half hour or so to loosen the needle, glow plug, and case screws before attempting removal.   Removed the needle and glow plug and loosened the case screws then put it back into the pot for another half hour.  Long enough to clean but not lighten the green paint on the head.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011160
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011159
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011158


Put on a prop and started pulling it through.  Very, very stiff.  Back in the pot for a few seconds and try again, went through several cycles of this.   Dropped some light oil in the glow plugs hole, case, and venturi.  More pull through, rocking motion.  Looser, but now I'm noticing a drag on two spots.. Oh, oh bent crank maybe but I'm not seeing the tell-tail indicator between prop drive washer and case.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011162
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011161


Won't know for sure until/if I pull the crank.  First and second layers, fine clean comes later.  If I can figure the drag I hope to run it.  I didn't realize these were serialized. My other green head is in the 405 range.

The fuel tank was a mess, all three tubes filled with dirt and green goo.  Crock Pot A/F cleaned it all out.  Ran warm soapy water through all tubes, then flushed it out with clean water until it ran clear then blew it out with compressed air.
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Post  Ken Cook Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:54 pm

Memories of the greenheads. Terrific engine for shooting fuel in your eyes and face. It's a real joy when mounted profile. Great for your hearing as well. The best part is burning your fingers off adjusting the needle valve. NOW THAT'S FUN!! My buddy Ted blew the cylinder right off of his one day when we were flying balloon bust. I have to say it was impressive. All that noise halted abruptly and the piston was hanging on by what was left of the rod. Somewhat reminded me of a sick dog with it's tongue hanging out. I have one here somewhere and the entire case is split in half. The engine bolts are what was holding the case together. When I removed it from the plane it fell in two in my hands.
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Post  rsv1cox Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:16 pm

Smile Smile

I always look forward to reading your responses Ken. This one makes me want to run it.

The drag (glow plug out, lightly oiled) is between 11 o'clock and 3 o'clock looking straight on at the propeller angle. Something a lot more than TDC shift. Not messing with the Mona Lisa here, thinking about pumice applied at the case/prop drive interface and an electric drill at low speed to see if i can eliminate it.

The other possibility is a bent con rod.
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Post  Ken Cook Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:48 pm

Engines aren't meant to be pretty. That one looks perfect and I wouldn't hesitate to run it. Offer it a fair amount of oil and it will make noise and smoke as intended. You need to orientate the needle back to the exhaust side to get the full experience of burnt fingers. You'll surely be missing out.
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Post  Oldenginerod Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:49 am

I got myself one of these a while back and it still sits in a zip-loc bag awaiting assessment.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head Img_2021

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head Img_2020

Complete apart from a missing needle and spray bar (ain't it just so?).  If anyone's feeling willing to part with what I need, I'm happy to negotiate.

It looks and feels reasonable so far. A bit of compression bleed-off, but not enough to stop it running ok I think.
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Post  Oldenginerod Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:51 am

Bob, I just noticed, yours looks like it might have a McCoy prop driver installed. I'm pretty sure all the Green Heads just had a black steel washer with internal taper.

Rod.
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Post  rsv1cox Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:31 am

@Oldenginerod wrote:Bob, I just noticed, yours looks like it might have a McCoy prop driver installed.   I'm pretty sure all the Green Heads just had a black steel washer with internal taper.

Rod.

I saw that Rod, adds credence to the prop washer being the drag culprit.   I see that yours is serialized also, unusual for mass produced economy engines.  

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011163
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011164
 

No way this will run Ken, the drag is to much to overcome as it is.  

I have enough balsa to complete the fuselage, but not enough to do the wing.  Mark's SE5 pictured above has a 36" spread (electric R/C) I'm thinking perhaps a 30/32" for this one control line.  

Anyone agree that Fred's original was control line because of the engine off-set?
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Post  getback Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:37 am

Here we go again cheers cheers I hope the stiff spot is Goo and not rust , good job on saving the green head paint ! If you can get that off (head) and the cleaner can get in there a little better would help , But if it's a paper gasket i understand Y you didn't No! I am happy you found something to do with these Hot days we been having , at least here it is ! I see ya got the balsa out for a up and coming project Clapping Always some entertainment here and makes me want to do something i keep putting off Rolling Eyes Popcorn
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Post  Eddy Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:46 am

Had to comment, as I still fly two of the Torpedo .35's today. First one I bought new in 1968, and is mounted on a Sig Banshee today, it flies the beginners stunt very well at 5.2 second laps on 60 ft. lines. The second Torpedo I bought at a swap meet some 20 years ago, and was run hard. The compression is down some on that one, and is today mounted on an original Guillow's Galaxy, it too flies well. These Torpedo's are great running engines of their day, quite noisy with the exhaust up in your face, mounted on a profile, just were never designed to use a muffler. A little more power than the Fox Stunt .35 has. The Torpedo has 0.56 h.p. at 13,000 rpm's with a 9.0 c.r. Where as the Fox Stunt has 0.45 h.p. at around 12,000 rpm and has a much lower c.r. of 6.0. As with the Fox engines, the old school Torpedo's need similar oil mix's, and I run around 28% oil, and 5 or maybe 10% nitro at most in cold weather. After run once to warm up, these Green Heads are good for one or two flips to hand start. I have a couple of complete needle valve assembly's, and always look at swap meets for more, as they will fit from the .35 all the way down to the .19 engine. Enjoy the old school Torpedo. Eddy
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Post  rsv1cox Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:58 pm

@getback wrote:Here we go again cheers cheers  I hope the stiff spot is Goo and not rust , good job on saving the green head paint ! If you can get that off (head) and the cleaner can get in there a little better would help , But if it's a paper gasket i understand Y you didn't No! I am happy you found something to do with these Hot days we been having , at least here it is !                                         I see ya got the balsa out for a up and coming project Clapping Always some entertainment here and makes me want to do something i keep putting off Rolling Eyes Popcorn

I see what your saying.  There maybe a bathtub ring of rust or goo around the inside of the cylinder where it sat for who knows how long.  A third possibility.  I wish Freddie would chime in with the back-story about this.  

I spooned on some JB bore paste and pulled the prop through several times with no noticeable improvement.  Decided not to use the electric drill.

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011166
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011165

Thanks Eddy for contributing your experience with these K&B Torpedo's.

Got to remove the backplate once again and check that connecting rod. I did save the case gasket, it's in perfect condition. Wouldn't have been without the A/F boil.
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Post  Oldenginerod Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:55 pm

I had a similar tight spot on my OS MAX-s .15. Had a "notch" halfway up the stroke and halfway down again. Lapping the piston didn't work. Turned out to be a bent crank pin. I discovered it by looking at the piston during its stroke and noticing a slight rotation as it passed the half way point. Not saying that's your problem, but I had to replace the crank. No such concerns with my Torpedo. I do have a Green Head .15 that needed the crank repaired. I talked about that in another post years back.
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Post  rsv1cox Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:15 pm

Eddy had good luck with his green head. Luck of the draw maybe.

I have my share of Japanese engines, but one of my best runners ever was a McCoy Series 21, a tad bit heavy but durable and turned enough RPM's to propel a draggy Sterling Biplane around.

Think I will go with this plan:

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head Se5_pl12

Designed for a 32" wing.

So, does anybody think Fred's original was a control line?
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Post  Oldenginerod Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:32 pm

@rsv1cox wrote:

So, does anybody think Fred's original was a control line?

Control line engine, control line tank, makes perfect sense.
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Post  rsv1cox Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:24 pm

@Oldenginerod wrote:
@rsv1cox wrote:

So, does anybody think Fred's original was a control line?

Control line engine, control line tank, makes perfect sense.

Looks like a modified Perfect tank with a high draw tube hopefully curved down and to the outside.
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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:21 am

@Oldenginerod wrote:
@rsv1cox wrote:

So, does anybody think Fred's original was a control line?

Control line engine, control line tank, makes perfect sense.

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011167

Pushed the wire in until it stopped, curve follows the tubing.
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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:31 am

It's not the replacement drive washer, jam nuts on the crankshaft and it turns just as hard and at the same place.

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011168

Struggle getting the head off. Heating twisting didn't do it.  Took two razor blades on one side, one on the other and a fine blade screwdriver to do the job.

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011170
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011169

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011171
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011172

Says K&B but all my McCoy parts fit, even have a spare connecting rod, but I can't get the cylinder off, might have to resort to heat the case and chill the cylinder.

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011173
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011174
K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011175

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011176


I'm betting that it's a slightly bent crankshaft.
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:41 am

None of what I see makes any sense. The tank is too low. The engine is now automatically placed in a lean condition. For standard clockwise flying the fuel is entering the spray bar from the incorrect side which is also leaning the engine further. The fact that the tank is vertical also presents problems due to the head pressure created within the tank. This will go exceptionally lean as the fuel load burns off due to the weight of fuel above the pickup. When full, the weight of fuel will assist in keeping the engine rich but will quickly go lean about mid tank. The tank should've been mounted on top of the engine crutch or the engine mounted inverted to work properly.

The tank should be dismantled. Unless it's a incredibly difficult tank to source, the time spent on trying to make something like this work outweighs it's cost. Removing the end cap and taking a peek inside is a easy task.
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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:52 am

@Ken Cook wrote:             None of what I see makes any sense. The tank is too low. The engine is now automatically placed in a lean condition. For standard clockwise flying the fuel is entering the spray bar from the incorrect side which is also leaning the engine further.  The fact that the tank is vertical also presents problems due to the head pressure created within the tank. This will go exceptionally lean as the fuel load burns off due to the weight of fuel above the pickup. When full, the weight of fuel will assist in keeping the engine rich but will quickly go lean about mid tank. The tank should've been mounted on top of the engine crutch or the engine mounted inverted to work properly.

                   The tank should be dismantled. Unless it's a incredibly difficult tank to source, the time spent on trying to make something like this work outweighs it's cost. Removing the end cap and taking a peek inside is a easy task.

I don't have your experience when it comes to these things Ken, but it had to fly at least once before it went boom.

The whole thing is strange for a control line plane.  To big, to clumsy, not suited, but different strokes for different folks.    I did find the tank and it's placement peculiar especially when there was so much room.  

Not a serious flying project for me, I'm just trying to replicate what the original builder had in mind.  But, I don't see the engine having much of a chance.  I will probably have to use my green head as a driver.  

I'll fix that spray bar.

K&B .35 Torpedo Green Head P1011177


Bob
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Post  Ken Cook Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:52 am

There also could be a very good reason as to why it was on the ground based upon what I'm seeing. That's too large of a tank for free flight but it could be rudder assist. Engine torque makes the plane roll left and adding right thrust corrects this so it's possible the plane under power required right thrust. The problem is that unless the tank is feeding correctly, the engine goes lean which pitches up the nose of the plane and it stalls the wing and down it comes leaving what you have now.
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Post  rsv1cox Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:14 pm

Yeah, maybe Galloping Ghost/Escapement. The engines off-set (pictured above) is not that great, maybe even a builder error.

Wish Fred would come in with what it was, I believe he cut off the fuselage from the pilot back and sent me the rest. He checks in to the forum every day. I might have to ring him up, but I hate being a bother......well, all the time I mean.

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