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Post  TD ABUSER Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:03 pm

As Sgt Schultz used to say.... I KNOW NOTHING...especially not about the PAW .049!!

I'd like to scratch build a plane capable of the C/L stunt pattern
I've got some experience building and flying "British Diesel Nostalgia" combat planes with PAW .15s..so I'm familiar with building my own soldered tin fuel tanks
I believe dope / silkspan is still considered a good way to go...but I also have 2 part epoxy and automotive urethane paint.
AFAIK diesel fuel and iron on covering don't mix
So...
How much wing area and RTF "do not exceed" target weight...?
Line length...[I'm a spiderline believer]
fuel tank size
prop
I have a 1/2 ounce plastic Visine Eye Drops bottle that might be usable for a tank. could brass tube or tygon tubing could be pushed through tight fitting holes that have been made in the bottle...?
Anyone ever try crankcase pressure...?
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Post  Coxfledgling Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:40 am

Have a look on the PAW website and find the vidio of the engine test run and notice the fuel tank used.

You will see the "tank" well below the engine which has no problem lifting fuel up to the spray bar.
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Post  Levent Suberk Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:12 am

It's BHP is .13 at 21000 RPM. Cox TD .049 BHP is .125 BHP at 21500 RPM. I think that you can use PAW .049 with every model that uses TD .049.
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Post  Levent Suberk Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:14 am

Once I thought Visine bottle as a fuel tank but no success. I couldn't fit fuel lines in bottle.
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Post  TD ABUSER Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:10 pm

Levent Suberk wrote:It's BHP is .13 at 21000 RPM. Cox TD .049 BHP is .125 BHP at 21500 RPM. I think that you can use PAW .049 with every model that uses TD .049.

I did not know that the PAW .049 was designed to rev so high..!
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Post  ffkiwi Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:27 pm

Yes they do-PAW's generally peak at fairly high rpm (for a diesel)....with the exception of the PAW55, and the one or two special models such as the 'vintage classic 80' or 'Texaco 15' that they have produced from time to time. The PAW 049 and 06 both have a single rear BR whereas the earlier 80 and 100 models were (usually) plain bearing [they even did twin BB ones...to special factory order]......however you would want to keep two things very much in mind:

(1) the PAW will be quite a bit heavier than the TD 049.....a quick check here gives 46.4g for a TD and 68.4 for a PAW 80...so about 50% heavier (the PAW 049 will be comparable....)

(2) you will need to prop it the same as a TD to get the stated power out of it....and on a 5x3 or 5x4 it will be a bit snappy...and tend to bite you whilst starting...whereas you could throw an 8x4 on it and it would be very tractable and pleasant....try doing THAT with a TD 049......but of course an 8x4 will not be much use for C/L stunt.....you might though get away with a 6x4 though-I'd be inclined to try out several options....including say a 7x4 trimmed to about 6.5 diameter....the PAW will at least have the torque to turn these whereas a TD-good though it is- will sag under that sort of load.....

  So yes you can use a PAW in place of a TD....but you will have to make some accommodations...nose length perhaps, maybe a fraction more wing area...and work out your starting method..

  ChrisM
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Post  TD ABUSER Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:12 pm

ffkiwi wrote:Yes they do-PAW's generally peak at fairly high rpm (for a diesel)....with the exception of the PAW55, and the one or two special models such as the 'vintage classic 80' or 'Texaco 15' that they have produced from time to time. The PAW 049 and 06 both have a single rear BR whereas the earlier 80 and 100 models were (usually) plain bearing [they even did twin BB ones...to special factory order]......however you would want to keep two things very much in mind:

(1) the PAW will be quite a bit heavier than the TD 049.....a quick check here gives 46.4g for a TD and 68.4 for a PAW 80...so about 50% heavier (the PAW 049 will be comparable....)

(2) you will need to prop it the same as a TD to get the stated power out of it....and on a 5x3 or 5x4 it will be a bit snappy...and tend to bite you whilst starting...whereas you could throw an 8x4 on it and it would be very tractable and pleasant....try doing THAT with a TD 049......but of course an 8x4 will not be much use for C/L stunt.....you might though get away with a 6x4 though-I'd be inclined to try out several options....including say a 7x4 trimmed to about 6.5 diameter....the PAW will at least have the torque to turn these whereas a TD-good though it is- will sag under that sort of load.....

  So yes you can use a PAW in place of a TD....but you will have to make some accommodations...nose length perhaps, maybe a fraction more wing area...and work out your starting method..

  ChrisM
  'ffkiwi'
Thanks Chris..!
Another 1/2A Diesel Guy recommended the Brodak Stork..which has about a 36" x 6" wing...[but there's no way I'm going to pay over $100 the kit.]
My goal for a plane of my own design is to be able to do recognizable square loops, triangles and so I think the more prop diameter the better for speed control...but the extra prop diameter might inhibit the models ability to execute "snappy" corners.
I think my first attempt should be a model that isn't fancy..but to shoot for least amount of weight I can get away with.
I haven't managed to structurally fail any of my own designs in quite a while....which means that I have definitely been building too heavy.
So it's time for an attitude adjustment..!
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Post  ffkiwi Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:19 pm

Do you have access to Aeromodeller? I recall a suitable 1/2A design from back in the late 80s or early 90s....looked like it had quite a lot of 'Peacemaker' ancestry.... it was a full size pullout plan in that issue. I'll have to go digging but i dareway I can lay my hands on it after a bit of a search....

ChrisM
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Post  TD ABUSER Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:32 pm

ffkiwi wrote:Do you have access to Aeromodeller?   I recall a suitable 1/2A design from back in the late 80s or early 90s....looked like it had quite a lot of 'Peacemaker' ancestry....   it was a full size pullout plan in that issue. I'll have to go digging but i dareway I can lay my hands on it after a bit of a search....

ChrisM
I'll see if I can find it.
OK..I found it as a 35 size plan but not .049
For my 1st attempt I like the idea of building a stretched out combat plane..but maybe with a fatter airfoil....PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...? 049_sl12


Last edited by TD ABUSER on Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  ffkiwi Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:08 pm

Damn but I'm good sometimes...! a quick search pull ups the Oct 91 aeromodeller with a full sized plan for the 'mini peacemaker'by well known modeller and airbrush expert ian Peacock....the plan shows a PAW 149 installed...so i reckon a 70% reduction of this would give you a good starting point-either as a reduced scale option or a starting point for your own design efforts.

Secondly I found the Nov 91 issue with full size plan for a 'dragon Wagon' stunt trainer ---claimed the original flew on an ED .46 on 20 foot lines, but the plan shows a TD 049....in this case you could scale up, i think as a starting point.

The good news is a check confirms the Mini peacemaker plan is on Outerzone...

over to you...

ChrisM
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Post  TD ABUSER Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:23 pm

ffkiwi wrote:Damn but I'm good sometimes...!   a quick search pull ups the Oct 91 aeromodeller with a full sized plan for the 'mini peacemaker'by well known modeller and airbrush expert ian Peacock....the plan shows a PAW 149 installed...so i reckon a 70% reduction of this would give you a good starting point-either as a reduced scale option or a starting point for your own design efforts.

Secondly I found the Nov 91 issue with  full size plan for a 'dragon Wagon' stunt trainer ---claimed the original flew on an ED .46 on 20 foot lines, but the plan shows a TD 049....in this case you could scale up, i think as a starting point.

The good news is a check confirms the Mini peacemaker plan is on Outerzone...

over to you...

 ChrisM
Well here it is with a PAW .049 and it's a good looking design...!
PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...? 049_mi10
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Post  ffkiwi Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:33 pm

Err-if you look closely that's a 149...or rather an 09.....the 049 has a screw on head-not head screws....and no venturi insert-as I noted previously the full sized plan shows a 149 fitted...so you'd have to scale down a bit for the 049....I suggested 70%...but that's just a guess on my part. Of course if you have a 149 lying around....just build it full size and fly on 45 ft lines.....the article mentions 35 foot....but unless you're used to flying Mini goodyear, I'd suggest that's a bit on the short side for 1.5cc aerobatics...

FWIW its on MY build list....and has been for some time....

ChrisM
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Post  TD ABUSER Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:25 pm

ffkiwi wrote:Err-if you look closely that's a 149...or rather an 09.....the 049 has a screw on head-not head screws....and no venturi insert-as I noted previously the full sized plan shows a 149 fitted...so you'd have to scale down a bit for the 049....I suggested 70%...but that's just a guess on my part. Of course if you have a 149 lying around....just build it full size and fly on 45 ft lines.....the article mentions 35 foot....but unless you're used to flying Mini goodyear, I'd suggest that's a bit on the short side for 1.5cc aerobatics...

FWIW its on MY build list....and has been for some time....

ChrisM

oops..that's a .09 but my 049 has 3 head screws and it came in a box labeled 80R/C A/C
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Post  Ken Cook Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:56 pm

The Stork is a very uncomplicated build. The Stork is named after it's designer Duane Stork. The plane was initially kitted by A&J Freeflight. They sold to Golden State Models who in turn sold to Walter Umland who then sold to Brodak.

In my opinion, the A&J Freeflight kits were the nicest of them all. A&J did not die cut the parts, these were inked like old Comet Kits. You cut and shaped everything.

Golden State Models did essentially the same but the inking absolutely sucked. It was too heavy and blurry and very difficult to remove leaving inking which bleeds horrendously when doped. However, they did machine cut the fuse, doublers and larger parts.

There's no finer kit in the world then a kit offered by Walter. From wood selection to laser cuts, to fitment. Walter makes the best. Just remember, you pay for it. Walter's health is very bad and we haven't seen anything in the past few years and I'm hoping that changes. Not only do I have several of his kits, I own some that he built.

As for Brodak, I'm not a fan of these kits. I buy them and build them but I like to correct the changes that were made from the originals. In the case of the Stork, the entire kit is laser cut making it very nice quality and some of the details on the wingtip are in fact a improvement over the original.

If you go to Outerzone, the Spitfire is essentially the Stork with different wingtips and fuse shape. Same plane otherwise and it's a simple constant chord wing. Cutting ribs is extremely easy to do.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:10 pm

Ken Cook wrote:In my opinion, the A&J Freeflight kits were the nicest of them all. A&J did not die cut the parts, these were inked like old Comet Kits. You cut and shaped everything.
Hijacked Ken, not long ago I bought an NOS A&J Free Flight reproduction kit from the 'Bay for a reasonable cost, the 66" 1941 Advanced Engineering Vanguard 66. It is just like you say, complete with very nice wood, but silk screened printed parts. It does remind me of my old printed Comet kits, albeit considerably larger.
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Post  ffkiwi Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:42 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:
ffkiwi wrote:Err-if you look closely that's a 149...or rather an 09.....the 049 has a screw on head-not head screws....and no venturi insert-as I noted previously the full sized plan shows a 149 fitted...so you'd have to scale down a bit for the 049....I suggested 70%...but that's just a guess on my part. Of course if you have a 149 lying around....just build it full size and fly on 45 ft lines.....the article mentions 35 foot....but unless you're used to flying Mini goodyear, I'd suggest that's a bit on the short side for 1.5cc aerobatics...

FWIW its on MY build list....and has been for some time....

ChrisM

oops..that's a .09 but my 049 has 3 head screws and it came in a box labeled 80R/C A/C

So that makes it an 80 or a 100-not an 049....for a quick potted history [those of you who've heard it before-go and have a coffee or something...]  PAW produced the 249, 19 and 149 from the very late 50s until well into the eighties-only those three models for a 20+ year period-though some of them had sub variants over the 20 year period. Frog engines-which had been actually made by Davies Charlton from about 1964-had faded away in the early mid 70s-and Davies Charlton themselves-and their successors Dav-Cal and Ewdec-faded away in the early mid 80s....so there were NO British Manufacturers making anything smaller than a 1cc engine at that stage. (though a bit of a scramble ensued in the early 90s when AE also got in on the act...) PAW decided the market was ripe for exploitation and produced a nominal 0.8cc....very much along traditional PAW lines around 1985-which was well received-and persuaded them to also do a bored out 1cc version named...very originally (!) the PAW 100  -both have the capacity stamped (in very small numerals) in the backplate well. Both of these engines went through several Marks and subvariants-including the Vintage Classic 80 mentioned earlier, and various single and twin BB versions-the latter AFAIK only done to special ex factory order. Subsequently-in the early 90s (1992?) PAW produced the PAW 55 as a replacement for the DC Dart, having earlier made replacement crankshafts for the last problematic batch of DC Darts-but to  their design with a single rear ball race, but the same all screw together construction as the Dart-which was a deviation away from normal PAW practice. This went down so well-and still does-(its by far the most powerful commercially produced 0.5 diesel)-that PAW then embarked on a redesign of the 80 and 100 models using the same design setup-ie single rear ballrace, screw together construction. To distinguish these new models from their predecessors, they were renamed the PAW 049 and 06 respectively-and initially supplied with nicely anodised heads and spinners-mauve in the case of the 049, and a deep green in the case of the 06.....PAW has since dropped the anodising as a cost saving measure.So the 80 is NOT an 049-and few if any parts are interchangeable...perhaps the backplate, prop driver and NVA.   Not that there's anything wrong with the earlier 80 and 100 models...its just that the 049 and 06 are a bit easier to start, and handle a bit nicer....I have about 6 of the former-in various guises-and three of the latter...

ChrisM
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Last edited by ffkiwi on Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  TD ABUSER Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:06 pm

Ken Cook wrote:            The Stork is a very uncomplicated build. The Stork is named after it's designer Duane Stork. The plane was initially kitted by A&J Freeflight. They sold to Golden State Models who in turn sold to Walter Umland who then sold to Brodak.

       In my opinion, the A&J Freeflight kits were the nicest of them all. A&J did not die cut the parts, these were inked like old Comet Kits. You cut and shaped everything.

      Golden State Models did essentially the same but the inking absolutely sucked. It was too heavy and blurry and very difficult to remove leaving inking which bleeds horrendously when doped. However, they did machine cut the fuse, doublers and larger parts.

     There's no finer kit in the world then a kit offered by Walter. From wood selection to laser cuts, to fitment. Walter makes the best. Just remember, you pay for it. Walter's health is very bad and we haven't seen anything in the past few years and I'm hoping that changes. Not only do I have several of his kits, I own some that he built.

       As for Brodak, I'm not a fan of these kits. I buy them and build them but I like to correct the changes that were made from the originals. In the case of the Stork, the entire kit is laser cut making it very nice quality and some of the details on the wingtip are in fact a improvement over the original.

  If you go to Outerzone, the Spitfire is essentially the Stork with different wingtips and fuse shape. Same plane otherwise and it's a simple constant chord wing. Cutting ribs is extremely easy to do.
Thanks again for explaining the differences in kit quality.
The Stork looks to have about a 6 to 1 aspect ratio and that's what I want to try....36" x 6"
I think 1.25" airfoil thickness with a "half round" leading edge.
Otherwise the FW190 that Goozgog built has the rest of the proportions and areas I think I'll try...the difference being I'll need a shorter nose for the heavier PAW.
i'll be sure to checkout the Outerzone Spifire first before commiting to any idea yet.


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Post  944_Jim Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:41 pm

Lots of good advice here already. I do want to mention there are several OZ models that have particular (peculiar?) aspects that appeal to the beginner stunt-dude.
a) Hershey bar wing, that is, common-size rib pattern across the whole wing, with only "flap" variations as a distinguishing factor.
b) Profile fuselage, easy to cut (in any shape).
c) landing gear...which helps the stooge-launcher/solo flier

Use the OZ detailed search features to search for Trainer, Single engine, wingspan as appropriate for engine size...I'm guessing between 30 inches and 36 inches. You I'll get a short list.

I think the Mercury Monarch is sized for 1.5 cc (.09 cid) engines. There are several others. By reviewing the plans, you may encounter several from England that were originally designed around diesels. They may even be the diesels in this thread.

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Post  TD ABUSER Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:19 pm

944_Jim wrote:Lots of good advice here already. I do want to mention there are several OZ models that have particular (peculiar?) aspects that appeal to the beginner stunt-dude.
a) Hershey bar wing, that is, common-size rib pattern across the whole wing, with only "flap" variations as a distinguishing factor.
b) Profile fuselage, easy to cut (in any shape).
c) landing gear...which helps the stooge-launcher/solo flier

Use the OZ detailed search features to search for Trainer, Single engine, wingspan as appropriate for engine size...I'm guessing between 30 inches and 36 inches. You I'll get a short list.

I think the Mercury Monarch is sized for 1.5 cc (.09 cid) engines. There are several others. By reviewing the plans, you may encounter several from England that were originally designed around diesels. They may even be the diesels in this thread.

I've heard people say that flaps aren't always needed to fly the stunt pattern.
They are suggesting that "rule book" squares and triangles can be flown without flaps
What do you think about that...?


Last edited by TD ABUSER on Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : because I wanted to)
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Post  944_Jim Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:54 pm

Umm, TD,
Please forgive me. I wasn't implying hinged flaps for performance, but rather fixed "flaps" that change the overall shape/appearance of the wing shape. Consider these to be nothing more than wing planform shape-changers.

With respect to what I think about certain patterns vs flaps...I hold no knowledge. I can honestly say "build heavy, crash heavy," and I needed no flaps for the last landing performed by two of my now-deceased planes. Affraid or WOW!

Two examples come to mind sharing a lot of similarities, and in particular, a wing full of the same ribs all the way across. While they employ hinged flaps, they could be built easily as fixed flaps.
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5643
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5642

Both planes may have the wing area you seek for your engines, despite being marketed for smaller ones.

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Post  TD ABUSER Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:26 pm

944_Jim wrote:Umm, TD,
Please forgive me. I wasn't implying hinged flaps for performance, but rather fixed "flaps" that change the overall shape/appearance of the wing shape. Consider these to be nothing more than wing planform shape-changers.

With respect to what I think about certain patterns vs flaps...I hold no knowledge. I can honestly say "build heavy, crash heavy," and I needed no flaps for the last landing performed by two of my now-deceased planes. Affraid or WOW!

Two examples come to mind sharing a lot of similarities, and in particular, a wing full of the same ribs all the way across. While they employ hinged flaps, they could be built easily as fixed flaps.
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5643
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=5642

Both planes may have the wing area you seek for your engines, despite being marketed for smaller ones.

What I'm getting at is there is an "official AMA stunt pattern" where the size and angle of all the maneuvers is specified as well as the radius of the suare corners.
Some AMA Stunt Flyers claim flaps aren't always needed for a plane to duplicate the Stunt Pattern.
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PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...? Empty Re: PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...?

Post  GallopingGhostler Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:36 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:I've heard people say that flaps aren't always needed to fly the stunt pattern. They are suggesting that "rule book" squares and triangles can be flown without flaps What do you think about that...?
...
What I'm getting at is there is an "official AMA stunt pattern" where the size and angle of all the maneuvers is specified as well as the radius of the suare corners. Some AMA Stunt Flyers claim flaps aren't always needed for a plane to duplicate the Stunt Pattern.
What I have been told. Vince Micchia, designer of Midwest profile warbirds did a 48" Bell P-63 King Cobra plan in May 1969 Flying Models:

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=7014
PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...? 701410

Was said to do the entire stunt pattern most satisfactorily, uses a standard, thicker stunt airfoil without moving flaps.
May 1969 Flying Models wrote:The P-63 "King Cobra," chosen for its clean lines and the handling ease of a tricycle landing gear. Of course, it is fully acrobatic, being able of flying the AMA Acrobatic Pattern with ease, so if you have no Combat in your blood, the "Cobra" is an excellent sport Stunter.
His Midwest 48" warbirds used a thinner airfoil but with flaps.

https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=7013
PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...? 701310

But, as I have heard a few attest here and there, that they would prefer these with a thicker airfoil. Beats me, but I guess Vince's objective may have been to fly a slightly faster speed to accommodate engines on the bottom end of power, so the neophyte still had successful flights. Not long ago, (Ken can clarify Thumbs Up ), there was a dude who won one of the Nats championships with his S-1 flapless thinner wing Ringmaster. Went to show properly set up and constructed (weight concerns included), even with thinner wing, a skillful pilot can still win.

But, don't mind me. I compare CL stunt to ice skating. There are those who can do the entire pattern including the Level 8 "Triple Lutz" Laughing with their plane. I am at the point where I skate upright around the circle, occasionally touching the wall for balance, do a Level 1 single loop, and if I land without a broken prop, then I had a successful flight.
Popcorn Stereo lol!
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PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...? Empty Re: PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...?

Post  TD ABUSER Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:15 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:



But, as I have heard a few attest here and there, that they would prefer these with a thicker airfoil. Beats me, but I guess Vince's objective may have been to fly a slightly faster speed to accommodate engines on the bottom end of power, so the neophyte still had successful flights. Not long ago, (Ken can clarify Thumbs Up ), there was a dude who won one of the Nats championships with his S-1 flapless thinner wing Ringmaster. Went to show properly set up and constructed (weight concerns included), even with thinner wing, a skillful pilot can still win.

:

The thicker airfoil should help regulate speed and also contribute to doing tighter corners without stalling....all else being equal and by that I mean the pilot has taken the time to optimize the leadout position, airframe accuracy, control vthrow ratios, CG, wing tip weight, prop selection and is flying a plane that isn't built too heavy.
Would winning the Nats with a Ring Master be about the same as winning a Billiards Tounament using the handle off a garden hoe...?
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PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...? Empty Re: PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...?

Post  TD ABUSER Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:16 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:
GallopingGhostler wrote:



But, as I have heard a few attest here and there, that they would prefer these with a thicker airfoil. Beats me, but I guess Vince's objective may have been to fly a slightly faster speed to accommodate engines on the bottom end of power, so the neophyte still had successful flights. Not long ago, (Ken can clarify Thumbs Up ), there was a dude who won one of the Nats championships with his S-1 flapless thinner wing Ringmaster. Went to show properly set up and constructed (weight concerns included), even with thinner wing, a skillful pilot can still win.

:

The thicker airfoil should help regulate speed and also contribute to  doing tighter corners without stalling....all else being equal and by that I mean the pilot has taken the time to optimize the leadout position, airframe accuracy, control vthrow ratios, CG, wing tip weight, prop selection and is flying a plane that isn't built too heavy.
Would winning the Nats with a Ring Master be about the same as winning a Billiards Tounament using the handle off a garden hoe...?
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PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...? Empty Re: PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...?

Post  GallopingGhostler Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:56 pm

TD ABUSER wrote:Would winning the Nats with a Ring Master be about the same as winning a Billiards Tounament using the handle off a garden hoe...?
If properly cued and chalked. lol!
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