Re: PAW .049 SET UP FOR C/L STUNT...?

Ken Cook Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:26 pm

When I built my Stork, I originally had a Norvel .061 on it. While I'm a big fan of the Norvel, it was a pain in the rear to regulate the speed. It was flying quite fast but I managed to get a handle on it. The problem I encountered is that while I went out a few feet on line length, reduced prop pitch it would work when the winds were light. It would run out of breath when the winds picked up when the plane was coming around the circle into a head wind. With the PAW, this seemed to go away. It took a few prop choices but I didn't subscribe to the large prop theory as most would think. I use the APC 5.7x3 which has a wide blade area. It worked well as did the Master Airscrew 6 x 3.5. When I tried the Cox 6x4 gray, it bogged down the engine in the maneuvers and it sped up out of the maneuvers which is completely opposite of what I wanted. I didn't go any larger on diameter as the other props offered good speed and drive. What I like about diesels is that the drive seems to be more consistent then a glow.

What I don't like is the inconsistency of run times associated with minor changes of the Tommy bar. I don't like fiddling with it anyhow but from day to day and hour to hour, it seems as though in order for me to get a reliable quick start it requires me to always turn it in initially and then back off. I don't like changing it too much as once the sweet spot is found, it enables me quick starts and I know I'm in the ballpark.

ffkiwi Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:56 pm

You do realise that you cannot set the compression to its optimum position until the engine has fully warmed up from cold?.....this may take at least 30 -60 secs of running to achieve-if you set it 'right' as soon as the engine starts and is running continuously- it will be over-compressed as the engine warms up to normal running temp, conversely setting it for a misfire and releasing the model into flight means you're guesstimating the correct position for when its warmed up. This of course means you may well have to top up the tank before releasing for flight, as you will have used a proportion of the contents warming up. The amount of ignition smoother in the fuel will also play a role here.....

ChrisM

HalfaDave Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:35 pm

Hi 1/2Abuser,
If you want Stunt with out flaps, check this out,
Bob Baron, 1971:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=11311
Nailed every corner...
Judged not 'smooth' enough....
The Prather 'Winder' nailed Open Combat the next year (s)...

My Dad bought an ED 1.5cc diesel for his then new HeathKit radio.
I was 10yrs old. (and could fly cl with cox.049s)
It was weird to start, but ran great, dialed right.
Heavy plane, but hauled it up. I chased, and picked it up.
First rc plane I got to do a 'lap' on.
Long summer day, ate supper, out early the next morning, because the weather was great.
Sunday was even better. Everything worked great. Perfect flying day.
Until,
We dumped our clothes in the 'laundry'....
'What the (polite rude expletives of the day) is this?', my Mum said.
(only after we started, the washer, not knowing there was other clothes in the machine)
Oops,
That was the only 1/2 of a pint of diesel fuel, we got from the hobby shop. ( and had 1/4 left)
On a bright note,
Somehow,
Castor oil soaked clothes, were OK...
Your results will vary,
Hope you like this story,
Take care,
Have fun,
Dave

Ken Cook Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:12 am

I'm well aware of the functionality of a diesel. My post was in regards to how much run time the engine can achieve just from a slight and I mean slight turn of the compression. I was in hopes of using my plane for 1/2A stunt at a contest. I can so easily over run in time that I decided against it. I've spent a entire day trying to get back to back runs and run times. I can achieve both, just not consecutively. Therefore, if I'm just kicking around to go fly, it works terrific, when I need to get serious, it never seems to want to cooperate. Nonetheless, I find it one of my most intriguing engines and I truly enjoy it. The other side is that NO one here is using diesels. It's neat, quite simple and it really offers a different experience.

TD ABUSER Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:16 pm

Ken Cook wrote: When I built my Stork, I originally had a Norvel .061 on it. While I'm a big fan of the Norvel, it was a pain in the rear to regulate the speed. It was flying quite fast but I managed to get a handle on it. The problem I encountered is that while I went out a few feet on line length, reduced prop pitch it would work when the winds were light. It would run out of breath when the winds picked up when the plane was coming around the circle into a head wind. With the PAW, this seemed to go away. It took a few prop choices but I didn't subscribe to the large prop theory as most would think. I use the APC 5.7x3 which has a wide blade area. It worked well as did the Master Airscrew 6 x 3.5. When I tried the Cox 6x4 gray, it bogged down the engine in the maneuvers and it sped up out of the maneuvers which is completely opposite of what I wanted. I didn't go any larger on diameter as the other props offered good speed and drive. What I like about diesels is that the drive seems to be more consistent then a glow.

What I don't like is the inconsistency of run times associated with minor changes of the Tommy bar. I don't like fiddling with it anyhow but from day to day and hour to hour, it seems as though in order for me to get a reliable quick start it requires me to always turn it in initially and then back off. I don't like changing it too much as once the sweet spot is found, it enables me quick starts and I know I'm in the ballpark.

I'll pay attention to your findings....because without knowing any better I guessed / assumed that a 7 x 3 would be the way to go.

TD ABUSER Sun Jan 29, 2023 10:18 pm

HalfaDave wrote:Hi 1/2Abuser,
If you want Stunt with out flaps, check this out,
Bob Baron, 1971:
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=11311
Nailed every corner...
Judged not 'smooth' enough....
The Prather 'Winder' nailed Open Combat the next year (s)...

My Dad bought an ED 1.5cc diesel for his then new HeathKit radio.
I was 10yrs old. (and could fly cl with cox.049s)
It was weird to start, but ran great, dialed right.
Heavy plane, but hauled it up. I chased, and picked it up.
First rc plane I got to do a 'lap' on.
Long summer day, ate supper, out early the next morning, because the weather was great.
Sunday was even better. Everything worked great. Perfect flying day.
Until,
We dumped our clothes in the 'laundry'....
'What the (polite rude expletives of the day) is this?', my Mum said.
(only after we started, the washer, not knowing there was other clothes in the machine)
Oops,
That was the only 1/2 of a pint of diesel fuel, we got from the hobby shop. ( and had 1/4 left)
On a bright note,
Somehow,
Castor oil soaked clothes, were OK...
Your results will vary,
Hope you like this story,
Take care,
Have fun,
Dave

Thanks Dave....now that is a FAT wing...!

TD ABUSER Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:07 pm

Ken Cook wrote:I'm well aware of the functionality of a diesel. My post was in regards to how much run time the engine can achieve just from a slight and I mean slight turn of the compression. I was in hopes of using my plane for 1/2A stunt at a contest. I can so easily over run in time that I decided against it. I've spent a entire day trying to get back to back runs and run times. I can achieve both, just not consecutively. Therefore, if I'm just kicking around to go fly, it works terrific, when I need to get serious, it never seems to want to cooperate. Nonetheless, I find it one of my most intriguing engines and I truly enjoy it. The other side is that NO one here is using diesels. It's neat, quite simple and it really offers a different experience.

If it was my contest I would not have any rules that discourage or handicap those who would like to enter diesels
I first started flying 1/2A C/L Combat in the 1980s and lost count of how many matches were won / lost due to one of the engines failing to be flip started by hand. There were contests that were won by guys who simply got their engines started while the other guy didn't.
Imagine spending your weekend driving to the next state looking forward to flying some combat..then returning home with a trophy because you got your engine started and the other guy didn't.
Electric starters could have prevented many of the "DNS non matches" from happening and provided more action
There are some rules that end up being a stupid way to kill interest in an event.

Mike1484 Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:31 pm

TD ABUSER ,

I can agree and disagree with what you said, but I always wonder what it would be like in the racing events in control line, like rat racing and Good Year racing and combat with the use of an electric starter. Maybe the skill, and the frantic effort of trying to start an engine is what makes the events entertaining. To me I just would not like electric starters in those events, just my old grumpy opinion. You are flying combat to show your skills and your team shows their skills by starting your motor and keeping you in the fight.

Mike1484

TD ABUSER Thu Feb 09, 2023 3:41 pm

Mike1484 wrote:TD ABUSER ,

I can agree and disagree with what you said, but I always wonder what it would be like in the racing events in control line, like rat racing and Good Year racing and combat with the use of an electric starter. Maybe the skill, and the frantic effort of trying to start an engine is what makes the events entertaining. To me I just would not like electric starters in those events, just my old grumpy opinion. You are flying combat to show your skills and your team shows their skills by starting your motor and keeping you in the fight.

Mike1484

YES. The skill it takes to "pit" the planes in the racing events is incredible.
It is impressive to see the AMA FAST COMBAT matches begin with ONE FLIP STARTS more often than not.
It boils down to being able to identify which rules strengthen support and interest in an event and which rules don't.
When I flew "British Nostagia Combat"...it was with .15 diesels exclusively.
The guys who were really good at starting their engines were there to fly combat..not to get a trophy for being the best at getting their engines started. So they allowed starters and more combat got flown by everyone as a result.

Mike1484 Thu Feb 09, 2023 7:43 pm

TD ABUSER ,
AMA combat rules state no electric starters. Points are given for airtime, cuts, and a kill takes it all. I find your comment of getting a trophy for being best at starting your motor rather condescending. I don't ever recall anyone that I ever flew against expecting a trophy for being best at starting their motors. Having good equipment, being prepared and knowing your motor, and having a good pit crew are all part of your ability to be a good combat pilot. Did you start your own motors or did your pit crew start them for you?
Mike1484

TD ABUSER Thu Feb 09, 2023 10:59 pm

Mike1484 wrote:TD ABUSER ,
AMA combat rules state no electric starters. Points are given for airtime, cuts, and a kill takes it all. I find your comment of getting a trophy for being best at starting your motor rather condescending. I don't ever recall anyone that I ever flew against expecting a trophy for being best at starting their motors. Having good equipment, being prepared and knowing your motor, and having a good pit crew are all part of your ability to be a good combat pilot. Did you start your own motors or did your pit crew start them for you?
Mike1484

WTH ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT...?
Show me where "BRITISH NOSTAGIA .15 DIESEL COMBAT" is in the AMA rulebook...?

Mike1484 Fri Feb 10, 2023 7:26 am

AMP ABUSER,
I never said nostalgia combat was in the AMA rule book and I have no idea what the official nostalgia combat rules are. WTH am I talking about? In AMA competition which I flew in doesn't allow electric starters and I don't think that they belong in the combat competitions. Like I said it is just my opinion. I respect your opinion and reason on using them. I would like to know what the official nostalgia combat rules are. I'm not a big fan of electric starters. I've seen to many motors ruined by them after a plane was stuck in the ground and the cranked over with an electric starter. If you need an electric starter, go and use it, I would rather hand start my motors.
Mike1484

TD ABUSER Fri Feb 10, 2023 10:03 pm

Mike1484 wrote:AMP ABUSER,
I never said nostalgia combat was in the AMA rule book
Mike1484

Then why did you bring up AMA RULES COMBAT when I was clearly talking about BRITISH DIESEL COMBAT...?

BTW...AMA rules 1/2A Combat would have had MUCH MORE ACTION AND FAR FEWER MATCHES DECIDED BY WHO GOT HIS ENGINE STARTED AND WHO DID NOT if starters were allowed.
I flew this event in the TD .049 era and estimate that 1/2 the matches ended up being NO COMBAT.....JUST THE WINNER FLYING LEVEL LAPS WHILE THE OTHER GUYS ENGINE WOULD NOT START.
What a way to spend a weekend..! Drive 100s of miles to the regional contest and come home with a trophy for getting my engine started..!! HAHA...WHAT A JOKE...!!!
NOTHING CONDESCENDING ABOUT THAT.
THE TRUTH IS HATE ONLY TO THOSE WHO HATE TO HEAR THE TRUTH.

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