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Post  Ken Cook Thu May 02, 2024 3:56 pm

Speed planes don't typically use drain holes. The pan on the plane there is not the correct pan for that plane. It appears to be a modified Tatone pan turned into a half pan as it's usually called. The Dizzy Boy had a full pan. Nothing wrong with what I see there. It looks terrific especially what appears to be checkerboard silk on the wings. The bottom of these pans usually used a rail of brass, stainless and even sometimes music wire to skid on. Sometimes even a single legged gear is used for landing gear.
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Post  rsv1cox Thu May 02, 2024 5:35 pm

Thanks Ken, that's it......silk. I have been trying to put my finger on what it was. It has a fabric look to it. Must be a silk pattern laquered/Poly? on.

The pan is nicely intergrated into the body of the plane. I'm thinking it's a kit maybe?

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Post  Ken Cook Thu May 02, 2024 5:46 pm

The checkerboards are done by silkscreen. The silk is then doped onto the wing. Aligning checkerboards is a art in itself. It was very easy to distort the squares due to keeping it taught when applying. Aligning the silk as it wraps around from top to bottom of the wing is another art in itself. Speed flyers are unique and pretty secretive. Kits were not as plenty as stunt. I can't say if your plane was a kit for certain because I don't frequent with them enough. What I do know is that you build to the pan so while your pan fits the plane, that only makes sense. The fitment would be very nice due to accuracy of following the outline of the pan during construction.

In order to fly speed, you need full machine shop capability. I don't have that and most of the time I use two line setups which defeats the speed.    
      Seeing your plane is setup for monoline. I'm not a fan of out whatsoever. I have tried it unsuccessfully and I don't care to revisit. I've switched to two line setups which works well but your now penalized by the additional line and diameter required. Monoline use solid cable and smaller diameter.
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Post  rdw777 Thu May 02, 2024 7:10 pm

I really like checkerboard and have done some in tissue one square at a time…. Only in small sections as an accent so it’s not hard to get away with…. The printed silk on Bob’s speeder would be a tuffy to align and the builder did a good job…. Did a good job overall from what I can see…. The scuffs on the pan indicate it was a real worker ….
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Post  rsv1cox Thu May 02, 2024 7:19 pm

Thanks Ken. The paint job doesn't live up to the silk application. It's not slopped on but close to it, quite thick. I would think considering the quality of the wing it would have been airbrushed on.

I found my engine. Got out my display case .09 Enya tree. Worst of the bunch and one that got by me. NVA on wrong for the Speed Plane but it does have a venturi restrictor. A Berrymans soak, a new glow plug and propeller and a test run is in order. Although I may forgo the Berrymans. Some Marvel Mystery Oil in the appropriate places loosened it up with good compression. Nah.....it's still cosmetically nasty..........Berrymans back in play.

A test fit in the fuselage shows it will need some filing of the exhaust extension and corners of the case filed off to fit. Test run before it is installed.

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Post  Ken Cook Fri May 03, 2024 4:18 am

From the looks of your pictures, the finish it pretty typical of what you would see. Speed planes are like combat planes. They were not 20 point front row airplanes. They go through a lot of abuse and one wasn't concerned of a buffed out finish as this wasn't the intent of the design. It certainly looks good if it was similar to a nicely finished combat plane. Combat planes have also morphed into these magical designs that some have taken great strides to put beautiful finishes on. The reality of it is that most that flew them rarely painted them with color . A clear finish over silkspan or silk was the norm.
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Post  rsv1cox Fri May 03, 2024 7:10 pm

I'm going to give up on this project, or at least table it until the proper engine shows up.

Only thing outside of a milled Torpedo .19 is the Enya .09 which can be modified to fit but I would have to mill off about a 1/8th" from the front of the pan and you know I'm not going to do that.  Alternative is to bush the prop drive out about the same distance because the nose of the case is short.  But, that would require a thinner propeller.   Otherwise the Enyas .09 is a good fit with no modification to the pan or the fuselage.  

I could construct a mandrel to hold the Torpedos cylinder/head and spin it on the big drill press and turn it down with a series of files.  Wish I had a lathe but I don't.  Cave man mechanics but it works if you have the patience.  

Tried everything, normal and abnormal.  But I did Berrymans the Enya .09 to great results.  Now, I would hate to cut it up.  

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Post  GallopingGhostler Fri May 03, 2024 7:27 pm

Bob, seeing that the plane is built for a specific engine, sometimes setting something aside to be worked on later, I've done that. Perhaps a couple months from now, you'll have new ideas or come across an engine that fits.

I remember that type of checkerboard silk, think K&S sold it, was more common 40 - 50 years ago. Came in difference colors (red/white, blue/white, etc.) Being that silk would be applied wet relaxing the weave, one would carefully dope around hte perimeter and pull it over so that the squares would remain straight and even. Wing looks like it was clear doped.

Still, the original owner did a nice job on it. Ken helped to clarify, those magnesium fuselage speed pans had a skid mechanism added to protect. I can see why. The magnesium would be eroded through by landing rash without a tougher skid plate or wheel added.

I guess the magnesium pan did more than simply solidly mount the engine. It also acted as a heat sink to help keep the engine cool during its run. a cool lower crankcase meant a denser fuel charge, I imagine.

Almost one of those long noses on say an Enya .08 would be about right IMO except for its exhaust porting similar to a Cox engine.

One thing with the Enya .09-II you lack is a custom prop extender adapter.

The converting of the round cylinder profile to be airfoiled fared, use of mono-line, all was done to make the speed plane as aerodynamically clean as possible. I imagine some contests were won with the fastest speed only hundredths of a second less than the others.
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Post  rsv1cox Fri May 03, 2024 7:43 pm

Ok, George......you Ken and others sent me to Wiki looking for a way to tell magnesium from aluminum visually.  Both are light, non-magnetic, abundant minerals.  So how can you tell the difference just by looking short of lighting a match..............Wiki was no help. Unusual.  My go-to!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium#

In the cosmos, magnesium is produced in large, aging stars by the sequential addition of three helium nuclei to a carbon nucleus. When such stars explode as supernovas, much of the magnesium is expelled into the interstellar medium where it may recycle into new star systems. Magnesium is the eighth most abundant element in the Earth's crust[13] and the fourth most common element in the Earth (after iron, oxygen and silicon), making up 13% of the planet's mass and a large fraction of the planet's mantle. It is the third most abundant element dissolved in seawater, after sodium and chlorine

I'm thinking that pan is aluminum.  Quite different in appearance from the pan that I sent to Ron, which I know was magensium. Strange that they were offered in both materials.


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Post  Ken Cook Fri May 03, 2024 7:54 pm

Your pan is aluminum and as I mentioned was made by the Tatone company. Magnesium would be extremely dark gray almost black and would have visible white oxidation all over it. One problem with the Tatone pans is that they can crack which I've had happen. Fortunately, these can be welded because the composition of aluminum used doesn't have porosity like magnesium does.
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Post  rsv1cox Fri May 03, 2024 8:05 pm

Ken Cook wrote:               Your pan is aluminum and as I mentioned was made by the Tatone company. Magnesium would be extremely dark gray almost black and would have visible white oxidation all over it. One problem with the Tatone pans is that they can crack which I've had happen. Fortunately, these can be welded because the composition of aluminum used doesn't have porosity like magnesium does.

Thanks Ken, thats the difference between this pan and the one I sent to Ron.  It's lighter (less gray) and more shiney. Strange that they were offered in both materials.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Fri May 03, 2024 8:17 pm

I have no experience with C/L speed pans. I mentioned magnesium, because from what I could remember in model airplane supply catalogs that sold them, recall seeing magnesium mentioned. I didn't know that Tatone made them, but then, I was never into speed except for reading about them in modelling magazines.

I thought it interesting that Mike @sosam117 mentioned the early Enya .35-III mufflers were made out of magnesium. I have one of those, and yes, the metal of the muffler is a shade darker than the aluminum in the Enya.

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t16807-tried-and-used-birchwood-casey-aluminum-black#216928

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Here's an article that is a little less into the weeds and is easy to read about the differences between zinc, magnesium and aluminum alloys.

VPIC: Aluminum, Zinc or Magnesium: How to Select The Right Die Casting Material
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Post  Ken Cook Sat May 04, 2024 6:15 am

Aluminum doesn't bend as easy as magnesium does not too mention aluminum is cheaper. It's no surprise that they used aluminum. I've had to drill the mounting holes in both style pans. What I found is that the aluminum is gummy and tends to really get clogged in the flutes whereas the magnesium doesn't. It was a bit of a challenge drilling the aluminum pan. It's a challenge drilling these anyway due to having to make a fixture to support the pan while drilling. It can be very easy to break out of the side of the pan if not done accurately. I've had used pans where others re drilled for other engines. If the old holes are left without filling them, the engine vibrations alone can eventually make the pan break on the holes. Whenever i have a old pan with multiple holes, I JB weld in a screw and grind it off flush to fill that hole otherwise the above occurs.
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Post  rsv1cox Sat May 04, 2024 8:42 am

Ah, it's Enya time again, it's been years.  I can't bring myself to cut up the Enya .09 pictured above.  After the Berrymans bath it looks and feels great.  

So I found this jewel on ebay just now.  Seller accepted my low-ball offer with free shipping.  But it's toasty.

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Not a problem I have lot's of spare parts including cylinder liners and pistons.  

This one I won't mind cutting up.  I would like to find a way to extend the drive washer, really not possible as it's conical.  It will take about an 1/8" extension for the prop to clear the pan.  Some sort of phenolic disk maybe.  Or luan, or........... A 7/4 prop still allows the prop nut to capture all the threads.

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Cleaned up Enya is on the right.

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Post  rsv1cox Sat May 04, 2024 2:50 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote: How to Select The Right Die Casting Material[/u][/color][/url]

I just had the chance to review that video George, It's amazing what machines/robots can do. Getting to be old hat today. They have AI generated flights of F-16's doing dogfights. Pretty soon, no assembly line workers, no pilots, no need for people.
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