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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:55 pm

Running in my new Norvel today. I have a brand new Big Mig .061. It's a really nice little engine and the coolest thing is it takes the same glow plugs we buy from Bernie for those clamp type heads, such as the 5 fin Texaco extra cooling. Cox heads fit too, but they'd look a little goofy.

I made a mount for it. As per the instructions I slathered the internals and the cylinder with castor oil and gave it a good spin with my drill. It has a really tight pinch with a larger-than-Cox type of bubump you can feel at TDC. This, I read, is normal. Time to light it up. I shook out most of the oil, put in 3 head shims, and and mounted a freshly cleaned 3 oz Sullivan next to it and set it to just the height where the fuel stopped dribbling at the nipple height. I wanted to hear it burn off a prime first, so with the NV closed I put a drop of fuel in the venturi and a little squirt into the exhaust port... just like a Cox. I flipped and it kicked back HARD. Okay, I learned something. I always start the Tee Dee .049 bare handed. Not this engine. So with a glove, I flipped, still trying to light off the prime. It sizzled and kicked and made a very short braapp once or twice, but not what I was hoping for.

So I opened the needle 3 turns, like the instructions said and tried again. Plenty of sizzling with an occasional short Brraapp. Maybe it flooded so I tried it a few times with the needle closed, but not much. Still sizzles. I shook it out to make sure the crankcase wasn't full of fuel. After about 2 and a half hours, I took a break. Church was still rockin and rollin so I didn't pull the wagon over there to fly. And a thunder storm was coming anyway.

I wenmt out to close up the shop and decided to try it again. I replaced my batteries and picked up where I left off. A few spins with the fuel off and no prime produced no action, so I thought, good, it's not flooded. I opened the needle 1.5 turns and gave it a tiny prime. the first few spins gave a pretty Brraapp, so I opened it another 1/4 turn and a tiny prime. Same thing, I thought I was sneaking up on it. By the time I was at 2-1/2 turns it was still promising when the prop screw started coming loose. It's a soft philips and I snugged it good but it came off again. I swapped to a MA 6x3(recommended size) and it wouldn't stay on. Finally grabbed the head of the screw with pliers and got it to stay.

So I went back to where I left off and only got sizzling and popping. The thunderstorm was raging, and I was ready for my ribeye and salad and potato, so I put it all to bed. I thought my first Tee Dee made me look foolish. But today, if I were to enter an engine starting contest, a Tee Dee would be my racehorse. So, I suppose, the Norvel will be too. But not today.

I ordered 3 black oxide prop screws, a thrust washer and a starter spring from NVEngines when I came in. Also two glowplugs for it from Bernie.


Last edited by RknRusty on Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post  fit90 Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:09 pm

Something that may help "loosen" things up and make it a little easier to start initially is to heat the engine with a heat gun or hair dryer just before trying to start it. An electric starter is like magic but you must use extreme caution. One drop too much of prime and an electric starter will bend the crank shaft. They can be difficult in the beginning but they are worth it. Stick it out and you will be rewarded with a powerful, dependable, long lasting engine.

Good luck,

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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:17 pm

Are they easier to flood and harder to dry out than Tee Dees?
What about the NV, is 3 turns a good starting point?

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Post  andrew Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:17 pm

NORVELs are sensitive to prime. Since you put a drop into the exhaust port, I'm assuming that you're starting yours without the muffler. I've started all mine initially without the muffler until they will run fairly consistantly. It makes it easier to blow into the exhaust to clear out any flooding.

I don't use a starter at all although many folks do. You must be extremely careful to avoid hydraulic lock if you choose to. The C/L models that shipped with the tank had a spring starter that was effective. As Bob suggested, a hair drier or heat gun is effective and I always use one on a new engine. The instructions that shipped with later NORVELs suggested flipping or running in with a starter cold to loosen the TDC pinch --- I disagree with that. The pinch disappears with heat, so flipping to remove it while cold only adds unnecessary wear. I'm inclined to believe when the engines hit the mass market, there were many complaints about hard starting and the running in eased the starting problem.

Don't run these engines sloppy rich -- get it into a rich 2 cycle so that it comes up to operating temp quickly. The piston/cylinder fit is good when hot; it's tight if too cool. Keeping the engine hot will lower running friction at TDC.

They need a fairly rich needle initially, but as the engine breaks in, you will find that you may lean it up to a turn or more. If you're only getting a Brrraaap, then add an eighth turn. Continue until you get a bit of a run.

I usually run with a single shim on 22.5% nitro -- this is with the standard NORVEL clamp and plug.

These engines can be a booger to start and breakin takes much longer than with a COX, but once broken in, they can be a real runner.

When mounted, I prime thru the carb. Choke and flip to pull fuel into the carb nipple, then add 1 drop, two at the most to the carb, flip four or five times without battery to distribute the fuel, the start. Many times I get starts on the first or second flip after breakin.

The prop screw is a 3mm. I buy 3mm x 25mm partially threaded screws from McMaster-Carr in hundred packs. The partially threaded screw has a thicker shank in the unthreaded portion and fits the NORVEL spinner better.

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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:08 pm

Great, Andrew. Sounds like I'm on the right track. Too late to not do the cold oily spinning thing. But I bet I'll get it running tomorrow. I'm using fresh castor-added Glowplugboy. It has 20% oil, but I might bring it up a little more before I go back to work on it. If it still won't start, I'll remove some shims. The temperature is high 90s and the humidity is the same, my shop has no environmental control, so that ain't helping.

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Post  Cribbs74 Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:49 pm

My Big Mig was a PITA to start the first time. I spent hours on it and came away with a story to tell eerily similar to yours. I did manage to get it running once. Just once, then I boxed it up and sent it to Indra. Seems he had better luck than I did with it.

I know they run really well but, I would rather have reliability over performance. Not much help to you I know, just wanted to say your not alone in the Norvel experience.

Ron
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Post  RknRusty Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:28 pm

I need a fine thread NVA for it. I tried Texas Timers and Kitting it Together with no luck. I read about people boring the venturi to fit it, but I'm not wild about that idea yet. Now that I'm a 100% bladder convert, it's too much trouble to mess with all the plumbing and pressure taps other people use. Slap a bladder on it and go fly, it's that simple. Any ideas where I might find one? I'll post this in the wanted section too.

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Post  PV Pilot Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:45 am

Preheating is the ticket with the Norvel's or any model motor with a tight TDC pinch.

I have some very expensive .21-.28 italian race motors with GALLONS of fuel thru them and a very tight tdc pinch, They still get a preheat to this day.

Just a tip, if you go into a hobby store and are looking to buy a motor, DON'T buy the one the salesman hands you to touchy/feel, because everyone and there dog has been flipping that motor over, grinding away the cold TDC pinch. Buy the one on the bottom of the stack.
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Post  fit90 Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:48 am

I think Andrew covered it pretty well. I still like to fill it with castor and flip it through, though. If you did that be sure and not wash the castor off the cylinder walls. Yes, they are easy to flood. When starting a new engine I start with the needle valve out between 2.5 ans 3 turns and only make small adjustments from there (no more than 1/8 of a turn). Also, make sure you have fuel in the line right up to the venturi. I like to use at least three head shims on a new engine to help lower the compression. I have had better luck hand propping lower compression full size engines so I just transferred this to model engines.

Norvels are demanding to get going at first but are really worth the effort. They do get friendlier as they get more run time on them.

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Post  PV Pilot Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:15 am

Broken in properly, single click adjustments on the needle will have a profound effect on engine running. If it gets a "surly" break-in, you will have a numb needle and it will take more clicks either way to make a running difference.

By surly I mean a hot preheat, then when it fires it is really to rich and you cold soak the motor, alot of warpage occuring there. Once fired off and running,, get it to sing then IMMEDIATELY back it off to the break point of 2 stroking and a blubbery 4 stroke sound, right at that fine line. 8 to 12 oz of fuel like that, then let it rip. AS SOON as the motor dies or runs out of fuel during break in, rotate that piston to BDC, quickly. A full cool down, then preheat and do it again.

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Post  andrew Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:22 am

@RknRusty wrote:I need a fine thread NVA for it. I tried Texas Timers and Kitting it Together with no luck. I read about people boring the venturi to fit it, but I'm not wild about that idea yet.

The NVA's that Larry used to carry had a threaded spraybar that could be modified to fit, but I don't see any on his site at this time. Texas Timers has their press fit model, but I don't know the diameter of the C/L spraybar and don't have a set of calipers in the office.

However, if you'll pull your spraybar and mic the diameter, you can probably get one here (but, they're pricey) :
http://www.the-printer.net/DookCat.html

A email would likely get you an answer on the correct NVA from Galbreath.

andrew



Last edited by andrew on Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:33 am; edited 4 times in total
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Post  andrew Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:28 am

@fit90 wrote:I still like to fill it with castor and flip it through, though. If you did that be sure and not wash the castor off the cylinder walls.

That's good advice -- I do the same, but flip only enough to distribute the oil. The cylinder walls are porous and can absorb oil. Lube, flip a few times and let sit for 24 hours. Priming directly into the exhaust can flush some of the lube out, so use sparingly.
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Post  RknRusty Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:44 am

I probably put too much prime into the exhaust, I'll watch out for that. Also turning it to BDC to cool down sounds like a good idea. Thanks for all the advice guys. My shoulder is sore from all of yesterday's flipping so hopefully I won't have to be as aggressive today. I definitely will use the heat gun. It was so close a few times, I think that'll push it over the top. I need to get a bigger tank though. Once it's running, I want it to keep running. I have a big Dubro tank somewhere around here.
PV, do you have a way to preheat the engine in the field? Or do you just give it a run before you head out to the field?
Y'all are great. Thanks for all the help. Once again I'm a noobie.

Rusty

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Post  andrew Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:06 am

@RknRusty wrote:PV, do you have a way to preheat the engine in the field? Or do you just give it a run before you head out to the field?

Rusty

Once broken-in well, there's no need to pre-heat.

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Post  PV Pilot Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:11 pm

I do all the breaking in on the bench with access to ac and a heat gun (or you can use a hair dryer with the high setting) Once you get it ran in, no need for preheating then.

Although they do like a preheat before running, it's really not needed after break in. I have seen guys using a magnifying glass out in the sun, but I wouldn't reccomend that, you could have a unknown/unseen fire real quick if it is focused in real tight. Just direct sunlight is a plus, let it warm up for a bit before starting. (cover the fuel tank with a cloth or?)

If you have a bigger Dubro tank, definitely a plus during run in. You can run your needle up and down with more varied rpm time allowed The more time on a Norvel, the smoother and less temperamental they are.
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Post  microflitedude Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:14 pm

I had an AME RC version once, but sold it to Johnnie Boy. I never could get it to start, I followed what everyone has said here. I guess I didn't have the patience for it. No plane for it either.
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Post  RknRusty Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:01 pm

I set up a nice clean new large tank so whenever it does crank I can keep it going for a long run. I warmed it up with a heat gun, but maybe not enough by the time I fumbled around and got down to serious flipping. I'm a little feverish and the heat was making me weak-kneed, so I figured the smart thing would be to wait till in the morning when it's cooler. I'm sure, just like when the Tee Dee was [bleep] me off, it'll seem so easy after I finally get it.

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Post  gcb Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:07 pm

A few comments and opinions:

First is the engine a NORVEL or NV? NORVEL is an acronym for Northern Velocity. The new ones are NV. I'm afraid I do not yet have any NV engines.

Is it a Revlite? If so, make sure your plug power is only on the head and plug. The Aluminum Oxide coating is not conductive.

Aluminum Oxide is a rough finish so only running time will make it smoother. I don't believe it heat cycles (but I may be wrong).

It WILL get easier to start and run better as it runs a bit.

One of the advantages of heating the cylinder is that it takes some pressure off the conrod bearing during the initial run. Of course it also makes it much easier to start.

Of course your experience may be different. There is seldom only one way to do things.

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Post  andrew Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:41 pm

Rusty,

Can you get us a couple of pics -- it will help identify the model.

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Post  RknRusty Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:43 pm

@gcb wrote:A few comments and opinions:

First is the engine a NORVEL or NV? NORVEL is an acronym for Northern Velocity. The new ones are NV. I'm afraid I do not yet have any NV engines.

Is it a Revlite? If so, make sure your plug power is only on the head and plug. The Aluminum Oxide coating is not conductive.

Aluminum Oxide is a rough finish so only running time will make it smoother. I don't believe it heat cycles (but I may be wrong).

It WILL get easier to start and run better as it runs a bit.

One of the advantages of heating the cylinder is that it takes some pressure off the conrod bearing during the initial run. Of course it also makes it much easier to start.

Of course your experience may be different. There is seldom only one way to do things.

George
George, it's an NV Revlite Big Mig. Yes, I am getting good conductivity, I can see the red glow in the exhaust port and when it is flooded I can hear it sizzle. I replaced new batteries with more new batteries, just to be sure.

Thanks for all of y'all's interest. I wish I could pass out popcorn while you watch me flipping and flipping. Maybe that spring starter will come in the mail soon.

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Post  RknRusty Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:46 pm

@andrew wrote:Rusty,

Can you get us a couple of pics -- it will help identify the model.

andrew
Here it is. No muffler on it while I'm trying to crank it.
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Post  mitchg95 Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:52 pm

i need one of those for my flying wing i am building
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Post  RknRusty Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:12 am

@mitchg95 wrote:i need one of those for my flying wing i am building
It looks pretty dang rugged. I'll be out there trying to bring it to life this morning. It seems I'm not the only one frustrated with his first attempt.

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Post  Ken Cook Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:20 am

Trying to run with a muffler initially is just asking for problematic starts. You can always add head gaskets making the flipping easier. They can be removed after a few runs. These engines don't require a lot of castor as Cox engines do. In fact it's been said that it can do more harm then good. A 20% mix of 50/50 works extremely well. I have the Norvel fuel still in quarts and the content states 18%total oil content. I pour off a few ounces and add more oil . I don't agree with that for the way I run mine. You do have to relearn 1/2A engines when going from Cox to Norvel. As many Cox engines like to be a bit on the wet side to start, Norvel's will flood quite easy and lock. If I do prime through the exhaust opening, I squeeze the side of my syringe allowing for a drop. Choking through the venturi is highly recommended. This is where the spring starter comes in handy.

Hard back flips on the prop generally will get you going if standard ccw flips aren't working. The other problems can be the plug at times. Norvel had some different versions of plugs. One was a 1.5 volt while the other was a 2 volt. Make sure the plug is glowing brightly as these do require a good battery. The Nelson Galbreath plus works better than any combo out there. I would elect to use that once the standard Norvel burns out. The Norvel plugs usually don't burn out, they form whitish deposits on them really exhausting them down. Initial running should only consist of a few minutes in between complete cooling. The engines need heat in them and pinching the fuel line to lean out for 30 seconds during break in periods should be done.

These engines also like props of smaller pitch. I would also remove the spraybar and make sure the hole in the spraybar is aligned properly with the hole in the venturi opening as I've found flash blocking that opening. That hole is made by precisely drilling a hole right next to the venturi opening and breaking out of it and into the venturi hole. Removing the circlip and screen will reveal the spraybar hole and possible flash in that hole.

The other problem is the venturi gasket. These get quite hard regardless of age. They squish and take a set allowing air leaks. The earlier versions were epoxied in and this wasn't an issue. I have removed the venturi and cleanly sealed the opening using Permatex Ultra Blue. If you can remove the bolt and venturi and reinsert the venturi and bolt without having to squeeze down the venturi, the o-ring isn't sealing properly. The stock needle leaves a little bit to be desired as well. Once the needle is somewhat set, cutting a small piece of tubing in between the needle and the spraybar is a good idea. The threads are a bit coarse and once again prone to air leaks. The extension piece although nice should be ground off flush with the knob itself. The needle is large to begin with and all this sticking out only allows more leverage to bend the spraybar. I've done in 4 myself. I have a prerequisite of items that I follow when running in a new Norvel. Taking the engine entirely apart is one of them. Polishing the crank the same way you do a Cox crank is in order as well. Ken
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Post  andrew Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:38 am

Here is a link to the NORVEL FAQ over in RCU. Lots of information, history, tips and tricks.

NORVEL FAQ

I had posted pics of several things that Ken has recommended in post #18 of the FAQ, i.e., making carb seals, needle seals and clipping the extension. The FAQ is well worth reading thru since NORVELs were heavily used by many of the posters there. Larry Driskill, GCB (George), Bipe Flyer, CombatPigg and a number of others have been major contributors to the FAQ.

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Diamond Member

Posts : 1429
Join date : 2011-08-11
Age : 73
Location : Western Kentucky

http://web2.murraystate.edu/andy.batts/ps/POWERSUPPLY.HTM

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Cranking and running Norvel engines Empty Re: Cranking and running Norvel engines

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