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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:29 pm

Yes, I know it's not Cox, it is however, a long lost Ringmaster. Everything Ken said would be an issue..... is an issue. Well, not really but every glue joint is brittle. I will have to make one new rib, re-do the center sheeting, cut out a new half rudder and re-glue every joint to include the bellcrank mount. Good news is the wing is super straight.

I am not sure where this one falls project wise, but I want to get a .35 sized plane in the air pretty bad. Anybody have an idea in how to remove the old silkspan that didn't just fall off?

Ron

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Last edited by cribbs74 on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post  Ken Cook Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:52 am

Ron, congratulations on your re kit. At this stage, I would save the wing replacing the other components. It's just easier that way and in addition, the glue will probably take better. I believe the home centers like Lowe's and Home Depot sell a stripper called Dad's Stripper. This is what some of the guys were using over on Stunt Hanger and supposedly it takes minutes. My experience with strippers are is that they need to be neutralized. I wouldn't know how to do this and I would make a post requesting this stripper and concerns.

That would be the fast way, I do it the old fashioned way and pick every little piece off using a #11 blade and safety single edged razor blades on the flat trying not to dig into the wood. Believe it or not , heavy grit paper like 50 and 60 garnet paper works well as long as your on top of the silkspan. Once the sanding block comes off your eating balsa rapidly. Finish up with 80 and move to 100. I usually recover with silkspan when I re do a winglike this. I wouldn't suggest that here as it's your first .35 and it will just get torn up and the constant repairs will quickly put your mindset in a bad disposition. My suggestion would be to smooth it up as best as possible, I would then Monokote right over top of it. Get this plane into the air as quickly as possible but make it accurate so that you can enjoy the experience. Having Monokote will also allow you to twist and warp the wing as needed in the advent of a warp. Also, covering the Ringmaster is great experience as it just may be one of the most difficult wingtips to cover without wrinkles. It takes practice and these are the planes to do it on. The wing tip has quite a complex compound curve and wrinkle real bad at the tip. This will give you some good experience trying to make it wrinkle free.

Unfortunately, things aren't always going to stay intact, things will break inversion can get confusing and the inevitable will take place. Keeping the plane as simple as possible without going overboard in the painting and decorating is highly suggested. I would at this point do the fiberglass joint over the trailing edges in the middle like I suggested on the Baby Ring. I would also dowel the stab onto the fuse with toothpicks and epoxy the stab onto the fuse. The Ring has a large stab and it's subject to breaking and the epoxy dowel trick keeps things together.

In addition, I would certainly go with Dubro pin hinges vs the cloth as these aren't going to flutter. I epoxy my nylon pin hinges in and I have some good tips on how to do it without gluing your hinges so they don't move. Making a new fuse will also allow you to go with a slightly thinner doubler like 3/32 5 ply which not only you can make longer but it would also be a tad lighter as the stock 1/8th" is a bit of overkill. Is this plane glued with Ambroid? I would also suggest pricking small holes with a pin in the area of the sheeting under the fuse body. This would just insure that the fuse gets properly glued as well. Your only gluing to the old sheeting and if that's already loose that can cause some vibrations. Ken



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Post  pkrankow Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:29 am

You *could* ignore the old silkspan as it adds little weight, changes the dimensions very little, and may (or may not) provide a smooth surface for finishing over.

Now, 1 layer of silk = no worry

Several layers of silk = you need to strip as dimensions will be off and too much weight may be added.

Phil
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Post  Cribbs74 Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:11 am

Thanks Ken,

That's the info I was looking for. I was planning on cutting a new rudder and stab anyway. The fuse is still plenty strong and appears to have never suffered a mishap. I was thinking of reusing it. The entire plane was glued with ambroid. So removing the ply doublers will be very easy. New ones will be thinner and longer. I think I can get away with using the old fuse unless you really think I should change it out. 1/2" balsa sheet ain't cheap!

I will probably just sand the old silkspan smooth and recover in Ultracote like you and Phil suggested.

I will employ all the tips suggested and fly this thing!
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Post  jhaye Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:43 pm

Ron,

Mix up some talc and dope and fill the defects in the fuselage, then cover it with silkspan. Pretty easy and will look good. Then you can Monokote the wing and your new tail feathers. When it's done fly it with the CG further forward at first so it's nose heavy. It will be more stable till you get use to it. Then you can move the CG back as you start doing some stunting. Why you have the wing open you might consider a adjustable leadout. It's easy to make and will allow you to do some fine tuning when you start flying it. A weight box in the outside wingtip is something to consider also. Not sure if you have the S-1 plans, I would make a horn for the tail off the original plans, there are two to choose from, one with a single hole and one that is adjustable, The adjustable one is what I made for mine and it was perfect. I made it out of plywood and then bushed the holes with copper tubing. Looks like fun. fox .35 will be in the mail by the weekend. I'm going to pick it up tomorrow

Jim
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Post  Cribbs74 Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:46 pm

jhaye wrote:Ron,

Mix up some talc and dope and fill the defects in the fuselage, then cover it with silkspan. Pretty easy and will look good. Then you can Monokote the wing and your new tail feathers. When it's done fly it with the CG further forward at first so it's nose heavy. It will be more stable till you get use to it. Then you can move the CG back as you start doing some stunting. Why you have the wing open you might consider a adjustable leadout. It's easy to make and will allow you to do some fine tuning when you start flying it. A weight box in the outside wingtip is something to consider also. Not sure if you have the S-1 plans, I would make a horn for the tail off the original plans, there are two to choose from, one with a single hole and one that is adjustable, The adjustable one is what I made for mine and it was perfect. I made it out of plywood and then bushed the holes with copper tubing. Looks like fun. fox .35 will be in the mail by the weekend. I'm going to pick it up tomorrow

Jim

Thanks Jim, all good suggestions how much tip weight on these? Right now it has solder wrapped around the wing spar.

Ron
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Post  Ken Cook Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:01 pm

Ron, 3/4 oz should be more than adequate. I've been reducing my tip weight on many of my larger planes due to flying them with Pro Braid. For .015 steel lines, 3/4 oz is good. This should be a lot of fun when you do get to fly it. Ken

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Post  jhaye Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:09 pm

Ron,

your grin is gonna last for days after your first flight. 1/2 oz. to start with then go from there. When it is in flight look for level wings, add more if the outboard wing is high or if it is lite on the lines. I ended up adding a trim tab to the outboard wing on mine also. It was my first big build and I think the wing was far from perfect. Fly's straight now. On the subject of CG I wasn't trying to confuse you. Weight added to the nose or tail moves the CG front or back. A tailheavy ringmaster is squirrely as hell, trust me, I cracked mine up when I added a 1/2 oz. to the tail trying to stunt better. You will end up adding 1 to 1.5 oz's to the tail from the gitgo, but be careful. I think my CG is about a inch from the leading edge. Anyhoo, good luck and keep the pictures coming.

Jim
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Post  Cribbs74 Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:37 am

So far I have everything sanded and stripped. I epoxied in new hard rock Maple bearers last night. The original configuration had them mounted in the nose only so I went ahead and cut them further back and exyended them in the fuse.

I have no clue as to what size leadouts I need to be using on this thing.
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:37 am

Ron, your leadouts for the Ringmaster should be .027" if using stranded which I highly recommend. I dislike solids due to bending and the siffness they can provide over time if rusted or gooed up. In addition, when they rattle in the car on the drive to the field wants to make you throw the plane out the window. The C-D leadouts the Sullivan provides is a good choice. I buy .027" in bulk and use that from .35 size models to .51. My .60 size planes use .032". I have to add a comment in regards to the engine bearers. Sterling provided the engine bearers within the doublers and didn't extend them back into the fuse. For some reasoning, when I built my final Ring, I did extend the bearers into the fuse and it shakes the bejeezus out of the plane. I've tried other engines as well. I'm not saying you did wrong, just something that I experienced. Some planes are just going to be shakers and this one is destined for the trash. I've had this happen with other models as well and profiles can certainly be susceptible to this problem. It just seems as some engines require a stiff nose while others are most forgiving. A Fox can be a real shaker and this is where the Armor All in the fuel trick can be your best friend. 2 squirts in a gallon is all that's required. Keeping a foam block under your tank and an inline filter can keep the dreaded vibes from foaming the fuel resulting in a overlean run. This can be due to many things like the grain in the bearers and also the fuse wood selection but I believe it just may be resonating the entire fuse due to it being too stiff now. Only trying it will tell. Typically, this is how it should be built. I prefer this due to being able to epoxy J-bolts into solid hardwood vs the ply doubler and balsa.

I strongly suggest using quality blind nuts on the backside of the doublers followed up with Nyloc nuts used as jam nuts. Many times if I have a shaker, I make steel pads to go under the engine and sometimes on the nut side of the fuse to keep the engine solidly tight and prevent the fuse and doublers from crushing.

In the event you decide to use the muffler which I provided on that particular Fox, keep one thing in mind if using the stock gear wire for the Ring. The back of the muffler stinger will catch the gear wire if the gear isn't located properly. That particular muffler has been drilled out to almost 3/8". I also ground out the internals allowing for a free flow. Many of my mufflers have the necked down stinger cut off allowing a hole of 1/2"-5/8". This is simple to cut off if needed for clearance. It will only further the performance of that particular muffler. Ken
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:13 am

Ron, I want to show you some examples of line end terminations. These I believe are all explained on the AMA website. All of them take practice and I use crimped ends on many of my sport fliers. On my competition stunters, I use wrapped line end terminations. I have a sloppy example of a wrapped end here. I use a fine copper wire to do this. The red wire shown in my pic is magnet wire and I really didn't like it do to it being slippery due to the clear plastic coating on it. It takes some searching to find uncoated copper wire. I certainly prefer uncoated, unfortunately it oxidizes which is why most copper wire is coated. The line is wrapped around the thimble and then the copper wire is wrapped tightly for about 3/4". I then fold the tail of the leadout back over the windings and continue the wrap of copper wire from the thimble back over the folded end and approx 1/4" past the fold which is then followed with a drop of epoxy. This is the best line termination due to it being a "Living joint" so to speak. Crimped ends work fine, they do need inspection from time to time the problem is the hard point being created at the start of the crimp tube which invites failure. I however, chamfer the internals of both ends of the crimp tube using a #11 blade then do my procedure. These examples don't have heat shrink tube over them for clarification. I just wanted to provide you with some examples of how my tubes were crimped. Heat shrink tubing stops the wire from flexing on the spot I explained providing a considerable lifetime to the termination. I use a CLEAR piece of heat shrink tubing which can be purchased from Radio Shack which allows you to see inside. I modified electrical pliers to do so. Damage inside the tube can be presented to the cable if the swage isn't done properly. Many fliers I see use wire cutters to crimp which causes a hard point internally resulting in failure. Sorry for the blurriness of the #1 pic. The last set is a set of 1/2A combat lines which uses a button type bellcrank which is why I use the double loops. Ken

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Post  Cribbs74 Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:30 am

Wow,

Thanks Ken. That's a wealth of info and most helpful. There are a few more things to consider on this bigger stuff.

I really wish I hadn't extended the bearers, but the damage is done. I have good quality thin rubber sheet and I wonder if it would be helpful under the engine mounts to keep the vibes down. It should be plenty strong still with blind nuts and lock nuts to keep things secure.

Thanks for writing that up and providing pictures.

Ron
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Post  John Goddard Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:38 am

Looking Good Ron.
Dunno if it's available in the States yet but I stumbled
On a product called QBond last week.
It is Mustard.
Might help with the resto.
Very Happy
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Post  Ken Cook Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:47 am

Ron, no damage was done, you did absolutely correct in terms of how a engine crutch should be fabricated. This was my experience with the Ring. I'm taught by experience. My experience has made me wonder that why is it when you do things to the letter, things don't always work. But, when you plant the Ring into the ground and snap the nose off at the leading edge and plug it back on with 5 minute epoxy it becomes one of your best flying planes. I just don't get it. It becomes a roll of the dice at times and I was just sharing my experience. I should've added in addition to my termination description that the leadouts pass through the crimp 3 times. In the examples, it appears as it's just around the thimble and out. That's not the case. The leadout goes through the crimp, around the thimble, back out of the crimp, I then turn it hard and return mine back into the crimp. AMA suggests to warp around the crimp which is stronger in the event of a slip. I'm confident of my crimps and I think my method which is also one the Sullivan uses allows for more room so things don't get snagged on ribs and spars etc.Ken
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Post  jhaye Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:46 pm

Ron

Go on the Tulsa Gluedobber's CL'er website and there is a illustrated article in the builder's tips section for wrapping your lead outs. It is the AMA approved method. I used it when I first was learning how to wrap line's and found it real helpful. Also a good article on how to mod a fox .35 so it won't burp.

Jim Hayes
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Post  Cribbs74 Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:03 pm

Thanks Jim,

I just need some leadouts to try it out on!!!!! lol!
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Post  jhaye Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:46 pm

There's a guy on e'bay that sells spools of wire, I just made up two new set's of .15 x 60' lines for $13.00 The company is called "fly by wire" look for it, you can buy 250' or 1000' of wire in all sizes. Brodak has cheap leadouts.

Jim Hayes
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Post  andrew Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:36 pm

jhaye wrote:There's a guy on e'bay that sells spools of wire,........The company is called "fly by wire"......
Jim Hayes

Hi Jim ---

Good find and excellent pricing. Is this wire un-coated?

andrew
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Post  Ken Cook Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:52 am

One thing to keep in mind, when you purchase a set of premade lines, they're typically horrible. 9 out of 10 times the lengths are mismatched and adjusting your handle to bias the controls is a poor way to solve that solution. A smidge here or there isn't a big deal, but I've seen line sets off more than 2". The lengths in general if stated 60' can vary from lengths from 58'- 61'. There's just no rhyme or reason other than get the product out the door. Having bulk line reels is far easier to do than most would imagine. When stating line lengths, one important factor to remember is that your line lengths are determined from center of plane to center of handle. I'm not suggesting that this is a control line law, but when you do make your line sets to the determined lengths, the plane flies better due to the speeds improving especially with a plane like the Ringmaster. I have several sets of lines due to some requiring slightly shorter while others can be excessively longer to keep the speeds at bay. I keep my line lengths at or around 58" eyelet to eyelet on the Ring as this puts the center to center spacing at 60'. Fly By Wire is a good manufacturer, quick service and the wire is a 7 strand stainless wire which is terrific for sport flying. I also use it for speed limit combat as I usually smoke a set of lines in 3-4 flights. In the event your lines get curly Q'd, taking 2 coins and squeezing them on each side of the wire while someone is pulling them tight generally makes them useable once again. Ken
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Post  jhaye Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:13 pm

I get a kick out of making my own, I made a few, there is some satisfaction in doing a good job and wrapping em nice. I use the copper wire out of and old lamp cord. Works great. Then I heat wrap it when I'm done. Some people like to epoxy the wrapped area. Only problem is it makes a hard point area where the wire comes in and it wears fast. The wire off of e'bay is normal seven strand wire. On there website he claims that it's made just for control line.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Jim Hayes
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Post  jhaye Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:19 pm

If you do decide to buy a set of lines, buy them from CLC, Jim Snelson's wife makes them, she has a special jig for wrapping lines. Her set's are perfect and there the length you order. I've got a few set's that I've purchased from them and they were all good sets.

Jim Hayes
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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:36 pm

Thanks Jim,

I'll check it out.

I've made some headway with the Ring over the last few days. I'll post some pics tonight.

Ron
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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:06 pm

Progress amongst madness. New maple bearers, couple ribs, rudder, elevator/stab and cockpit. I need to cut the ply doublers still as well as sheet the center wing among other things....

https://i.imgur.com/SSWrk.jpg
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Post  pkrankow Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:19 pm

Looking good!
Phil
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Post  Cribbs74 Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:38 pm

Thanks Phil,

Heading out to cut doublers now!
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