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My first Little Satan build Empty My first Little Satan build

Post  Theo Kleynhans Wed May 28, 2014 4:52 am

Hi Everyone

I have started a little Satan build. After seeing how much fun you guys have had with them. I am scratch building from the old Goldberg kit plan.

This is how it started a few nights ago:
My first Little Satan build Img-2013

Then it went to this:
My first Little Satan build Img-2014

Now it is at this stage:
My first Little Satan build Img-2015

My first Little Satan build Img-2016

I will appreciate your comments and suggestions.

What tip weight should I add?

I cannot get from the plan what Balsa to use for the Elevator. Could someone please help me with what thickness balsa I should use?

Should I reinforce the nacelle around the joint of the firewall as indicated on the plan? Is this necessary?

I see that the firewall on the outer wing side is basically onto the leading endge. Thus the engine back plate on the right side will be very close to the leading edge. Any comments on this?

Theo
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Post  JPvelo Wed May 28, 2014 7:50 am

Theo,
Nice job on the build, that's a fun airplane. I've built a few little satans. They are how I taught myself inverted flight.
I think I used 1/4oz tip weight but I can't be sure. I use 1" fiberglass tape applied with thinned epoxy to wrap from the top of the nacelle across the firewall to the bottom. This is a very important step, don't leave it out.  The outboard nacelle is shorter so the engine points out and keeps the lines tight. I would use hard 1/8 balsa for the elevator.
 What engine do you plan on using?

Jim
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Post  Theo Kleynhans Wed May 28, 2014 8:48 am

Thank you for the info Jim.

I will ensure to do the fiberglass strengthening.

Yes I hope mine will also be a great plane and fun to fly.

I am going to use a Black Widow for now. I also have a Norvel that I am busy running in. Maybe I will try it with the Norvel later on.

Do I also use the fiberglass tape on the hinges on the elevator?

Theo
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Post  OVERLORD Wed May 28, 2014 10:30 am

You can do Theo. On my JR Satan, I cut a 90° groove in the elevator's leading edge to locate the hinge. I then epoxied the hinge with 2h époxy to the elevator. Also try to use 1 continuous wire for both hinges.

My first Little Satan build Imgp2110

My first Little Satan build Imgp2111

This is only 1 way of doing it.

Lieven
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Post  RknRusty Wed May 28, 2014 11:15 am

Hi Theo
My very old Li'l Satan plans said to use a sewing pin as a hinge on each side held in place with either epoxy and fabric or fiberglass tape. And mine came loose. Luckily it came loose two flights after I flew the Traveling prop. Rolling Eyes The plans I sent to you were a new Brodak version. A continuous hinge made from very thin music wire is a good idea. It's easy to make it tail heavy and difficult to add nose weight, so 3/64" wire, max. Personally, I think 1/8" balsa is too thick for the tiny Li'l Satan. My stab is hard 1/16" balsa with a ply doubler to support the control horn.

When I re-made my tail feathers the other day, I got overly fancy. The CF tube is not necessary as long as the hinge pin moves freely. My pin is locked and the tube pivots on the wire. My tube is wire wrapped and epoxied to the stab. I made my cutout reliefs too large, and plan to fill them with some scrap balsa.
Rusty
My first Little Satan build WP_20140513_003_zps494161f0
My first Little Satan build WP_20140528_001_zps615e90dd

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Post  batjac Wed May 28, 2014 11:42 am

Nice looking plane, Theo. Your build is going great.  I keep thinking about a Little Satan also, but my mind keeps going off in odd directions when I sit down to print out plans.  Can't wait to see how yours turns out.

The Thinker Mark
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Post  Ken Cook Wed May 28, 2014 2:34 pm

Theo, is that Dacron line your using for leadout material on a aluminum bellcrank? That could be very short lived. I highly suggest using either .015" braided wire or solid music wire like 1/64" for that purpose. Personally I prefer braided due to it not kinking and binding. It's much more forgiving over the solids not to mention smoother. Ken
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Post  RknRusty Wed May 28, 2014 8:23 pm

Ken Cook wrote:          Theo, is that Dacron line your using for leadout material on a aluminum bellcrank? Ken
Good catch, I missed that.
Thanks for not mentioning the old greasy dacron hanging from the end of my wing. It's on a nylon crank, but as I found last week, there's no reasonable amount of surgery possible to change it once it's all sealed up.
Rusty

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Post  JPvelo Wed May 28, 2014 8:39 pm

RknRusty wrote:
Ken Cook wrote:          Theo, is that Dacron line your using for leadout material on a aluminum bellcrank? Ken
Good catch, I missed that.
Thanks for not mentioning the old greasy dacron hanging from the end of my wing. It's on a nylon crank, but as I found last week, there's no reasonable amount of surgery possible to change it once it's all sealed up.
Rusty
Rusty,
this is what the easiest reasonable surgery looks like!
My first Little Satan build MpieVnD
Theo,
This is why you reinforce the nacelle with fiberglass. I can't tell you how many times this plane had flown straight into the ground. Tail booms are easily replaced and the nacelle stays in one piece.

Jim
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Post  RknRusty Wed May 28, 2014 9:10 pm

Ha! Yeah, that's one way to get to the bellcrank. I'll reinforce what Jim says, glass the nacelle. Here are some pictures of my construction a few years ago. It's solid as a rock.

My first Little Satan build SAM_0948_zps7993369d
My first Little Satan build SAM_0945_zps91f1ee78
My first Little Satan build 1005112046_zpsd613784f

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Post  Cribbs74 Wed May 28, 2014 10:03 pm

Do both you and Jim have Brodak versions?
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Post  JPvelo Thu May 29, 2014 12:19 am

Cribbs74 wrote:Do both you and Jim have Brodak versions?
Mine is from a pair of hand cut kits I bought on eBay a couple years ago. I have a 1/2a elliptical combat wing from the same seller I need to build.

Jim
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Post  RknRusty Thu May 29, 2014 4:05 am

Mine is a Goldberg original. And I have a new Brodak Li'l Satan in the box. I want to build a couple of 1/2As later this Summer including that one and a Stuntman23 with a solid airfoil.
Rusty

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Post  Cribbs74 Thu May 29, 2014 7:38 am

Yeah your guys Bellcranks are in the right spot. If I knew then what I know now I would have corrected that.
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Post  Theo Kleynhans Thu May 29, 2014 8:17 am

Thanks Guys for all the assistance and nice words.

Lieven, Thank you for showing me how you do the elevator.

Rusty, Thanks for showing me what you did regarding the elevator and the necalle. I have never used epoxy before. Hope it is not difficult to use.

Mark, maybe when I am done and you see it finished, you could start your own.

Ken, thanks for letting me know with regards to the dacron leadouts. Unfortunately I already closed the middle section last night. I hope it will not fail. Dammit, why did I not see the post before I closed the middle section. It will be very difficult to open it up again I guess. What do you propose? Can I leave it?

This is the wing as it stands:
My first Little Satan build Img-2019

My first Little Satan build Img-2020

Any comments regarding the epoxy to use and how to apply it?

Theo
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Post  Cribbs74 Thu May 29, 2014 8:41 am

Theo,

As the saying goes "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

At this stage of the game it's easier to do it now. I am not sure what glue you used to adhere the sheeting, but if CA they make debonder. If something else like Sigment or Ambroid type glue some denatured alcohol might work(might)

In either case you can slowly separate the sheeting on one side if you work slow with a hobby knife cutting and prying along the joint.

As far as epoxy is concerned it's usually two part and is mixed together and applied with a spreader or whatever is handy. A little goes a long way! If you apply too much it can be removed with alcohol if it is still curing. I would apply Epoxy to the Bell crank mount once you have the sheeting removed.

Epoxy is usually found at hobby stores and is sold as 5, 15 or 30 min. That refers to the time it takes to hard set. Rule of thumb is the longer it takes to set the better the adhesion.

Ron


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Post  OVERLORD Thu May 29, 2014 9:22 am

Theo,

Why don't you cut 2 10 to 12 mm holes, 1 above each bellcrank end. That will allow you to cut the knot. Then you could feed the braided wire through the hole and make the loop long enough to make the knot outside the covered part. It will be a bit of a fiddle but it could work. You can plug the holes again with a round piece of balsa or directly by iron on covering. What do you think?

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Post  roddie Thu May 29, 2014 10:04 am

Hi Theo, Your build looks great! sorry about the bell-crank dilemma... Like Ron said; better to fix it "now".. than to constantly worry about when your lead-out will break. I've always used "solids".. but I could've made the same mistake. There's so much valuable information you'll get from fellow modelers here.. and this is just one more thing I never knew could happen.

Epoxy is something you'll always want to have in your assortment of adhesives. As Ron also said; it is a two-part adhesive, and needs to be mixed in order to work. Be sure to thoroughly mix together equal parts of resin and hardener.. and only mix enough to do the job at hand. Once mixed; it has a "pot-life".. and if your using the 5-minute type, you need to work FAST!

As with anything model-building related; "preparation is everything". Assure adequate ventilation and protect your work surface with wax paper or plastic wrap, (snug-fitting vinyl surgical gloves keep your fingers clean.. and the oils from your skin off the model) Devise a clamping method beforehand.. make sure your joints fit well, have some cotton swabs/tissues on hand to smooth-out/remove blobs of excess glue that may seep out or spill. A great tool for spreading mixed epoxy is a Plumber's "flux-brush" with it's bristles cut short with scissors (to approx. 3/8" or shorter)

My first Little Satan build Epoxy_10
This allows you to brush-on the glue and spread it evenly. An un-noticed epoxy glue-blob once hardened; requires trimming-off with a blade.. which can risk breaking delicate construction. I save the flexible plastic lids from food containers for a palette to mix epoxy on and can be reused many times. Set it aside when finished.. and later when the glue has set; it will easily peel off the lid.
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Post  ian1954 Thu May 29, 2014 10:38 am

Another nice build coming along.

Where on the plan did you get the profile to cut the ribs from?
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Post  Ken Cook Thu May 29, 2014 3:14 pm

The simplest way to get into sheeting is to use a straight edge and cut with your knife on a sharp bevel. Don't have your knife at a 90 deg angle to your work. Keep it at a good 35 deg-40 deg angle. Pull out the piece and do what you have to do. The pieces will go right back in and can be glued . There's no need for anything under it using this method. Ken
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Post  RknRusty Thu May 29, 2014 3:42 pm

Ken Cook wrote:              The simplest way to get into sheeting is to use a straight edge and cut with your knife on a sharp bevel. Don't have your knife at a 90 deg angle to your work. Keep it at a good 35 deg-40 deg angle. Pull out the piece and do what you have to do. The pieces will go right back in and can be glued . There's no need for anything under it using this method. Ken
Absolutely, I agree. It's the neatest, easiest, and strongest way. No need for micro-surgery.
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Post  Ken Cook Thu May 29, 2014 8:40 pm

I would also suggest that you use nuts behind your firewall if you haven't already. I personally use 2-56 blind nuts for this purpose. I epoxy them into the ply. This stops oil migration and also keeps wood screws from tearing out of the wood. Ken
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Post  JPvelo Thu May 29, 2014 8:57 pm

Ken Cook wrote:I would also suggest that you use nuts behind your firewall if you haven't already. I personally use 2-56 blind nuts for this purpose. I epoxy them into the ply. This stops oil migration and also keeps wood screws from tearing out of the wood. Ken
Couldn't agree more. I tried blind nuts once and now I can't imagine building a 1/2a without them.

Jim
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Post  getback Thu May 29, 2014 9:09 pm

Theo I know it hurts to cut that pretty but is the best way to keep it is to do it now read , figure and just figure out what you need to do , step by step as you rebuild it to change it to make it right these guys know there stuff and can be over whelming , been there and have had to correct a few of my mistakes (did not know no better ). Learning is a good thing you have a good learning ability , skill going there just needs shaping Very Happy  Getback
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Post  Theo Kleynhans Fri May 30, 2014 8:26 am

Guys, thank you for all the comments and recommendations regarding the changing of the leadouts and how to get back in the centre area.

I was staring at the wing and thinking for quite some time last night before starting. I actually did not have to cut anything to get them changed. I changed them through the leadout holes in the middle rib. It took a lot of patience, frustrations and long nose pliers, but at the end I got them changed without cutting any wood. I am so glad about that one.

My first Little Satan build Img-2021

My first Little Satan build Img-2022

Roddie, thank you for the info on the epoxy. I got some 30min epoxy. We will see how that will turn out.

ian1954, I got the rib template at the bottom left of the plan. You do need to create your own one for the middle sheeted section. I just used the original template and cut away the thinkness of the sheeting for the centre ones.

Ken, thanks for letting me know regarding the blind nuts. Do anyone have a picture to share so I can see how this looks when it is finished in the plywood whith the epoxy? I just want to make sure I do it the right way.

I cut all the rest of the parts last night and started with the necalle.

This is where I am at the moment:
My first Little Satan build Img-2023

My first Little Satan build Img-2024

My first Little Satan build Img-2025

Now I need to finish the necalle and do the blind nuts.

Then I will start the booms and elevator. Regarding this, do I first fix the booms to the wing and then do the elevator portion?

Thanks again Guys

Theo
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