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Post  balogh on Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:39 am

This bird was originally designed for a COX TeeDee020 engine but I beefed it up with an  COX049 Reedie Product engine having a TEE DEE 049 cylinder. Propeller: Bernie's Thimble drome 5x4, fuel: 20/20/60% blend of castor/nitro/methanol.The engine revved around 20k (averaging the audio tach-s of inbound and outbound runs because of the Doppler-effects) when unloaded in the air.

With the formula some CEF members use here this would translate into a speed of 121km/h=75mph, had the bird flown in non-compressible fluid...but it is compressible air where it flies, so I believe the speed could realistically be somewhere around 65-70km/h.

A bit windy weather but still enjoyable flight. Captured with a Sony HDR-AZ1 head camera.Outskirts of Budapest, Hungary, October 10 2015. LONG LIVE COX!!!



Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Lil_ro10


Last edited by balogh on Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  GallopingGhostler on Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:54 am

Nice fast flight, balogh, thanks for sharing. 049 reedie provided a spectacular flight.
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Post  rsv1cox on Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:03 am

Pretty amazing. I'm surprised that you could keep it in sight and still determine it's orientation as fast as it is.
Wonderful flying and vision skills.

Bob
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Post  balogh on Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:07 am

Thank you. This cam has a fish-eye optics so a bit wide sight. The plane is much more visible in reality than one may see that on the screen. Unfortunately some wingovers and loops with inverted flights remained invisible in the video.
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Post  1/2A Nut on Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:33 pm

Cox .049 Lil' Roughneck!!

Great job of the project and getting the plane on video. When I started using a head mounted cam I tried zoom settings and such the best thing to do is just fly closer once you are comfortable with the plane. Nice passes low in front of the camera will give you good entertainment of your efforts. = )
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Post  Marleysky on Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:14 pm

rsv1cox wrote:Pretty amazing.  I'm surprised that you could keep it in sight and still determine it's orientation as fast as it is.
Wonderful flying and vision skills.

Bob

GREAT FLIGHT VIDEO!  Nice airplane too! The video reminded me of using a flight simulator on an older computer, the plane got out of sight real quick, and I couldn't tell where it was headed until it crashed or I flipped it in to FPV (pilot seat) view.
Thank you for sharing.   Leaves
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Post  balogh on Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:24 pm

Well flying such small RC planes really brings you often in a situation that you hear but do not see it temporarily or see it but the orientation is unclear. Then I "reboot " the flight by forcing an upward looping which makes the plane visible as it rises and defines it's orientation too...not without the danger of crashing...this is why the further the plane flies the higher I climb with it so as to allow some forgiveable emergency maneuvers like above.
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Post  1/2A Nut on Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:46 pm

You should find some more speed with the Cox 4.5x4 once your ready to add some more pep. Small Cox Logo
The APC 4.5x4 may even allow it to go a bit faster. APC 4.2x4. would be perhaps 22.7k unloaded.

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Post  getback on Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:19 am

Thanks balogh!! Got me to clean my computer screen so I could tell what was and wasn't the airplane lol! Good flying man she was screaming !! Hope to see more . Eric
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Post  balogh on Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:38 am

getback wrote:Thanks balogh!!  Got me to clean my computer screen so I could tell what was and wasn't the airplane lol!  Good flying man she was screaming !! Hope to see more . Eric

lol! Thx getback actually I had to do the same cleaning thing on the screen of my laptop to see the plane better....The next video will hopefully be a bit better, this was the first I shot with this head cam, and I need to adjust its height as it was pointing too high etc.
The thing is you cannot fiddle too much on the camera while in flight especially because of the castor smear on the fingers after the engine was started, that you do not want to soil the lens with...
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Post  1/2A Nut on Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:14 am

Here is a close up Rudolph


Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Imag1712




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Post  roddie on Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:46 am

balogh wrote:
getback wrote:Thanks balogh!!  Got me to clean my computer screen so I could tell what was and wasn't the airplane lol!  Good flying man she was screaming !! Hope to see more . Eric

lol! Thx getback actually I had to do the same cleaning thing on the screen of my laptop to see the plane better....The next video will hopefully be a bit better, this was the first I shot with this head cam, and I need to adjust its height as it was pointing too high etc.
The thing is you cannot fiddle too much on the camera while in flight especially because of the castor smear on the fingers after the engine was started, that you do not want to soil the lens with...

I wiped my laptop's screen too!.. haha! Really COOL.. 6+ minute engine-run! Your engine might be the same arrangement I used on my Rare Bear speed model. Is that a Killer Bee style backplate? It looks like one. I'm curious what you used for a fuel tank set-up. I had fuel-draw issues with mine, when trying to use a small homemade 7cc uniflow vented hard-tank. The fix was using lg. size fuel line. I had plumbed the tank with 1/8" (3mm) copper-tube to allow sufficient flow. Compression-sleeves hold the 36mm length line tight on the tank and backplate nipples.

You got a nice long strong steady engine run.. that's for sure.
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Post  balogh on Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:48 am

Roddie,

I am glad that you all enjoyed the video...that backplate sure is a Killer Bee one, except that I have added a mesh screen because of the harsh flying field conditions allowing only landing on deep grass.

Ever since I started to pay scrupulous attention to fuel cleanliness, tight fuel-line with no air ingress, and air filtration, the only thing occassionally plaguing my flights is the loose glowhead...at the end of the video the head was already loose a bit, the somewhat reduced engine speed also tells the story.

I have disembowelled my bird to show my so far most reliable fuel tank arrangement I follow in all my COX size R/C planes ranging from 010 to 051 powerplants: a common party balloon in which a normal rubber stopper with 2 outlets - one for filling, one for engine feed - fits well without the need of using any tension band to hold the baloon neck on the stopper. This tank holds fuel enough for  8-9 minutes flight in fact. (30-35 ccm)

Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Roughn10

Inverted flights easy with no venting and foaming problem, full tank-compartment occuppation in the nose of the plane no matter what shape the nose has....all these point toward to supremacy of a ballon tank versus any heavy soldered metal, or clunked, thus heavy plastic tanks.
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Post  balogh on Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:01 am

1/2A Nut wrote:Here is a close up   Rudolph


Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Imag1712





Thanks 1/2A Nut, a beautifully captured moment...on your note regarding the prop size, I will definitely try with a smaller one you suggested.

In fact I have 5x3 and 4,5x3 3-bladed props that I would also like to try, like the latter on my Bloody-Reedy Mary 049  I have just customized from various parts, see below:

Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Bloody10

This girl turns the 3-bladed at 20,5k on a bench and will certainly unload around 21-22k in the air with this prop.
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Post  1/2A Nut on Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:35 pm

The 5x3 is not going to help you other than improve rpm and thrust but the speed will be less.
The 3 bladed prop will just add more load and thrust but not improve rpm or your speed.
Thumbs Up The 4.5Dx4P is your best cox prop solution due to size of plane it's ideal.
Thumbs Up to the APC 4.5x4 best results!
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Post  balogh on Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:16 pm

Thanks 1/2A Nut, I will try the 4,5 x 4 prop.

From another perspective, I believe the plane speed maxes out when the engine mounted on it runs on peak output. This is really a trial and error method, because larger props pull the engine rpm down and vice versa.

The highest engine output will not necessary occur at highest engine speed i.e with the smallest dia prop, because the performance curve of each engine maxes out at a given rpm and then drops down at higher rpm. I guesss you all now the characteristic curves of the COX engines here:

http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/cox_frameset.htm

The point is to find the prop whose characteristic curve intersects the engine output curve at its peak, then your plane will fly the quickest.

In this regards, depending on the engine, this intersection may occur with a 5x3 3blade prop - if your engine has its max output at a lower rpm - as well as with a 4,5x4 2-blade prop, if your engines peak output occurs at a higher rpm. You never know, unless you have the characteristic curves of the engine and prop both..

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Post  GallopingGhostler on Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:45 pm

I have to agree with you there, balogh. I found with my late 1970's .049 Black Widow that the best props were 6x3 and 6x4 Masters. Following was quoted from Peter Chinn in the August 1974 Aeromodeller:

http://www.sceptreflight.net/Model%20Engine%20Tests/Cox%20Black%20Widow.html

Peter Chinn wrote:The Black Widow is intended for operation on fuels of a medium nitro rating - i.e. about 15 percent nitromethane. Using such a fuel, our test motor recorded a maximum torque of just over 6 oz.in. at around 9,000 r.p.m. and a peak output of nearly .08 b.h.p. at between 15,000 and 15,550 r.p.m. These are quite good figures for a 'sport' type .049 and are reflected in some useful speeds on various props.

The most useful prop sizes with the Balck Widow should be 6x4 for a control-line stunt or sport and a 6x3 or 'fast' 6x4 for free-flight although, should the need arise, the engine is capable of turning 7 in. diameter props of 3 to 4 in. pitch, such as one might wish to use for a large 'motor-glider' type model for example.

Prop speeds recorded on test included 10,600 r.p.m. on a 7x4 Taipan nylon-glassfibre, 11,200 on a 7x3-1/2 Bartels epoxy-glassfibre, 12,000 on a 7x3 TopFlite wood, 12,600 on a 6x4 Tornado nylon, 13,000 on a 6x3 Tornado nylon, 13,800 on a 6x4 McCoy nylon, 13,900 on a 6x3 KeilKraft nylon. 14,000 on a 6x3 Tornado nylon, 14,600 on a 6x3 TopFlite nylon and 15,500 on a 6x4 (nominal) D.C. nylon. The Black Widow was also checked on 5-1/2x3 and 5x4 Tornado nylon props by these took it up to over 16,000 r.p.m. static which probably means rising to 17,500-18,000 in flight and, as the b.h.p. curve indicates, there would be no advantage in propping the engine for more than say, 16,000 in flight. No problems were encountered during the tests of this new Cox model and the original Cox glowhead survived the entire series of test runs.

Of course, with tweaks and the QZ heritage cylinder sleeved engines that morphed into the Sure Starts, I can understand where slightly smaller diameter props and higher RPMs might lead to better results. At least for the sport type engines the 2 bladed 6x3's seem to do well on standard nitro fuels. At least that has been my impressions.

For a smaller aircraft designed for a .020 Tee Dee, use of smaller diameter props might be more appropriate providing a slightly reduced thrust to bring it in line with the lower output of the Tee Dee. I like the idea of the throttled .049 reedie, because it opens up all sorts of speed envelopes, turning an otherwise nice flyer into a tiger.

Back in the late 1970's and early 1980's, I had very good results flying rudder only with auxiliary 3 step throttle on Ace pulse with my Sterling Minnie Mambo and Cox .049 R/C Bee engine. It basically had a Sure Start style cylinder with rotating exhaust throttle muffler. I flew it both with and without the muffler. To get the 3 speeds to work, had the KRD sequential servo move forward providing about 1/3rd cracked open to provide medium speed, pulled back all the way barely cracked open for idle (about 1/2 speed), and wide open in middle for full throttle.

Had to drill a carefully calculated hole closer to the servo throttle disk's center to get the right action. Worked like a charm. Plane flew well with this setup because I built it light. Wing was clear doped silk, rest of plane used Pactra Solarfilm. Cox in their instructions recommended a 6x3 two blade prop for best flight performance. I imagine the Sure Starts will provide similar performance with a throttle ring.

As usually, YMMV (your mileage may vary) with props and I've also found that whereas at sea level there wasn't much difference between the older Top Flight nlyon 5-1/4x4 and 6x3 with the Black Widow, that at 6,500 feet (1,981 meters) elevation, the 6x3 was the best prop to use. The 5-1/4x4 barely could sustain flight with the reduced power output caused by reduced ambient air pressure at elevation (14.7 psia at sea level versus 11.5 psia at 6,500 feet). That combined with personal preferences in tuning, model weight and aerodynamics will make what works for one not work for others.

Of course my perspective is from a sport flyer's standpoint, not a competitor and thus can only speak from personal experience, which is far less than a lot of others who love to do this out of a passion for it. Love the technical details from the likes of Peter Chinn since I've got a degree in Mechanical Engineering, but as they say, an ex-spurt is a former drip under pressure. Laughing
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Post  roddie on Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:27 pm

balogh wrote:Roddie,

I am glad that you all enjoyed the video...that backplate sure is a Killer Bee one, except that I have added a mesh screen because of the harsh flying field conditions allowing only landing on deep grass.

Ever since I started to pay scrupulous attention to fuel cleanliness, tight fuel-line with no air ingress, and air filtration, the only thing occassionally plaguing my flights is the loose glowhead...at the end of the video the head was already loose a bit, the somewhat reduced engine speed also tells the story.

I have disembowelled my bird to show my so far most reliable fuel tank arrangement I follow in all my COX size R/C planes ranging from 010 to 051 powerplants: a common party balloon in which a normal rubber stopper with 2 outlets - one for filling, one for engine feed - fits well without the need of using any tension band to hold the baloon neck on the stopper. This tank holds fuel enough for  8-9 minutes flight in fact. (30-35 ccm)

Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Roughn10

Inverted flights easy with no venting and foaming problem, full tank-compartment occuppation in the nose of the plane no matter what shape the nose has....all these point toward to supremacy of a ballon tank versus any heavy soldered metal, or clunked, thus heavy plastic tanks.

Nice! I love the "Happy Face"!! Thank you for posting that photo. I thought I was being careful with fuel cleanliness.. until I read about how rubber squeeze-bulb degradation can cause trouble with the glow-plug coil. I hadn't been using filters on any of my lines either. I still have one of those little primer bulbs that Sig used to include with their 1/2A airplane engine-starting kit. In later years they switched to a plastic syringe. I liked the little bulbs.. but they're hard to find now.

I made a balloon capsule/tank.. but haven't tried it yet. The capsule is a florist item for cut-flowers. The silicone pick-up line inside has a few wall-perforations made with a paper-hole-punch. They're at different points around the circumference of the line, should the balloon's wall collapse over one of them. I think you may have taught me that trick.. not sure though. Have you made any of your pick-up lines this way?

Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Balloo10
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Post  balogh on Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:44 am

Roddie

I puncture the pickup tube in the balloon the same way. I copied that from the late and great Roger Freihheit who sold me a PET type exhaust throttle for Tee Dee 010 engines and my first balloon tank. I have not used any other tank design in COX size RC planes ever since.
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Post  roddie on Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:26 pm

balogh wrote:Roddie

I puncture the pickup tube in the balloon the same way. I copied that from the late and great Roger Freihheit who sold me a PET type exhaust throttle for Tee Dee 010 engines and my first balloon tank. I have not used any other tank design in COX size RC planes ever since.

As the saying goes Andras.. "If it ain't broke.. don't fix it!" Laughing
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Post  balogh on Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:24 am

roddie wrote:
balogh wrote:Roddie

I puncture the pickup tube in the balloon the same way. I copied that from the late and great Roger Freihheit who sold me a PET type exhaust throttle for Tee Dee 010 engines and my first balloon tank. I have not used any other tank design in COX size RC planes ever since.

As the saying goes Andras.. "If it ain't broke.. don't fix it!" Laughing

lol!
Your saying reminds me of the stories by my favorit novelist, the Czech Bohumil Hrabal, about his late Uncle Pepin, who, back in the times of  Austro-Hungarian monarchy, had a motocycle that he disassembled every Sunday to find out why the engine was working so well?
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Post  balogh on Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:37 am

For those who enjoyed the first one, here is another one from today....

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Post  1/2A Nut on Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:26 am

Says please sign in to view this video Leaves Wonder what they mean sign in as you?
Perhaps its set on private rather than public mode for the vid.
Im signed in to YouTube already and on the Cox forum. Small Cox Logo

I do see this one looks new:



Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Imag1810

Lil' Roughneck 049 flight video Imag1811

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Post  balogh on Sun Oct 18, 2015 8:34 am

1/2A Nut wrote:Says please sign in to view this video Leaves Wonder what they mean sign in as you?
Perhaps its set on private rather than public mode for the vid.
Im signed in to YouTube already and on the Cox forum. Small Cox Logo


Sorry I flipped it on youtube to public now, maybe this time it works.
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Post  1/2A Nut on Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:20 am

Yes showing to the public now.

Perhaps if you walk out past your car you would be willing to fly closer to the camera. One fun thing I do besides low passes by the camera (within 15ft or say 3.5 meters) I like to fly in a circle pattern around me so I turn with the plane and fly closer in and track some great up close video. Small Cox Logo

Perhaps you could add a throttle sleeve to allow a comfortable speed up closer. The camera tends to make the craft look further away then what it actually is and when they are small planes going fast this effect tends to be expounded further.

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