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Fuel blending and storage

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Thinking Fuel blending and storage

Post  fredvon4 Thu May 19, 2016 2:34 pm

A Topic all the time is: " what fuel do I need " and there are many many threads on this subject

When I first got back to the hobby, I acquired much more fuel than I can use in a year...then I learned what these engines really need.. DOH! ... and not finding the exact fuel I desired..... I bought Nitro, Methanol, Castor, and synthetic oils for my own blending and experimenting

A lot of Tower, Sig, Hobbyco, and Riches brew fuel come in clear plastic quart or gallon jugs... THEY suck--- as I like Nitro fuels and light greatly can degrade Nitro.  Plus these jugs always seem to expand some in shipping and the bottoms are NOT flat

Yes Virginia, I have a clean, dry, dark, climate controlled storage cabinet

Initially I bought gallon metal screw top cans from my local Sherwin Williams paint store---- but they no longer have them, just the gallon typical "paint" can

I recently acquired a few new engines: OS LA 25 and Evo .36 that have a different blend need from my other engines so now need to stock, store, and use five different blends

I found the Cary Company (www.thecarycompany.com) and made a "rest of MY life" order

1- one gallon
4- 1/2 Gallon
5- Quart
clean metal cans....note the tops are sold separate and you have choices

Order was $37 and the $22 shipping was a bit high for my taste....but even Amazon sources were higher

Spent hours trying to find a free/lower cost shipping source

Not really that bad at $5.90 per can considering that is close to what the local paint store wanted for one

FWIIW... I keep 1 gallon Torco Nitro, 1 gallon Torco Methanol, 1 quart UCON LB 625, 3 quarts Sig Castor, 2 Quarts Sig KLOTZ and  2 gallons of LHS crap fuel on hand.... mostly 10% N 17% oil RC car fuel...(all they have locally)...luckily this crap fuel is usually around $15 per gallon...sure glad my car does not need this stuff


Fuel blending and storage 20160519
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  RknRusty Thu May 19, 2016 5:53 pm

Those shiny clean cans are nice. I might keep an eye out for some locally. What were the cap choices? Foil covered cardboard seals may not last the life of the can. Soft plastic would be good if the volatiles don't react with it. I like the plastic threaded neck and cap on the Powermaster cans. Do you ever add acetone or Coleman fuel to your mix? As I understand it, 2 oz. of Coleman fuel in a gallon significantly increases your gas mileage. Convenient if your tank is an ounce short on capacity and you have no room for a bigger one. I forget what acetone is supposed to do. Maybe the same thing.

I hear fuel blends best if you add your components in a certain order. Do you do that?
Interesting topic.

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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  fredvon4 Fri May 20, 2016 8:03 am

In each of their series of metal cans, some come with a cap but most you can choose from several with descriptions on what they are good and NOT good for

I get the ones for solvents and not the type for food grade liquids ( I think food grade are the foil over paper)
They also have the annoying metal cap insert like is in many solvent cans you buy that you have to pierce and pry out.... I do use these (metal insert caps)for the longer term storage stuff I re-blended from the crap RC car fuel

I don't use ArmourAll, have not needed greater range so no white gas (Coleman), and all I read about Acetone sounds like snake oil to me

My first blending followed the recommended ingredient sequence for mixing and one day got distracted and added in "wrong" order... the blend mixed up just fine so now I just follow my printed recipe: usually the Nitro, oil blend, and then the methanol, cap and shake

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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  getback Fri May 20, 2016 8:58 am

Glad you brought this up I have been looking for some empty clean cans for my fuel needs here is another place I came across http://www.freundcontainer.com/32oz-silver-cone-top-cans/p/1905T05/ Eric Small Cox Logo
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  fredvon4 Fri May 20, 2016 9:42 am

Yep one of the companies I found also

either has a fairly steep shipping cost.... I wanted some 1/2 gallon ones and did not see them on that site (I am sure they do have them just had an easier search on the other site)
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  RknRusty Fri May 20, 2016 11:15 am

I've been reading that Armor all's newer recipe is no good and clogs the works with thick white goop. If I needed to add anti-foam, I'd use the same bottle of Son-of-a-Gun that I've had for 20something years. Or longer. It works great, but I never need it anymore.

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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  roddie Fri May 20, 2016 11:38 am

RknRusty wrote:I've been reading that Armor all's newer recipe is no good and clogs the works with thick white goop. If I needed to add anti-foam, I'd use the same bottle of Son-of-a-Gun that I've had for 20something years. Or longer. It works great, but I never need it anymore.

Hey Rus, when you did use it.. about how much did you use/oz. of fuel? My couple of bottles of Armor-All are pretty old.. but they do list "NEW & IMPROVED-STRONGER UV PROTECTION" on the labels.

Fuel blending and storage Armor-10
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  fredvon4 Fri May 20, 2016 12:08 pm

Anti foaming using Armor all

DON'T do it.... fix the problem first... good model, perfect engine mounting, preferably on aluminum bearers, well balanced propeller, proper and well attached fuel tank with anti vibration built in with closed cell foam under tank...high quality fuels almost all already have anti foam agent in them

There really is a very small set of shaking engines you might need additional anti foam additive...Fox 35 is one.... but if you fix it on a well design nose and very well balanced prop and closed cell pad under fuel tank... well I just say this--- my home brew fuel does not foam in the tank of my Fox 35 Ring Master ARF

Are you using new modern engines like the Evo 36, LA 46, LA 25, Ro-Jet, Stalker, Brodak 40, ASP and many many other ABC, AAC, ABN non baffled engines? They are smooth runners properly mounted with a balanced prop-----none of this crap is necessary for them

Killing a $6 plug from the WRONG type or amount of some "additive" is not good idea in my perspective....fix the underlying problem!

Need better range/run time... screw the Coleman or Acetone....get and install the RIGHT sized tank...simple and only $12 usuall

Sorry Rusty...I know you are having luck with these fixes.... but I read 5 forums and the loss of airplane and or glow plugs is very high using the so called additives

For winter low temp fliers....put a can of Ronsonol lighter fluid in your field kit...use it for initial prime....some guys I know even squirt a bit on the Cyl head...light it ...once burned off....prime and start the now slightly warmed up head
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  Ken Cook Fri May 20, 2016 3:49 pm

I've been using it for 15 years and even suggested it's use on here several years ago. I know Rusty been doing it as well. Hmmm I must be doing something wrong because I haven't seen it burn out any plugs.
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  fredvon4 Fri May 20, 2016 4:09 pm

Ken we have a whole lot of lurking and other new guys on these forums

Wouldn't you agree to try to fix the foaming problem first?

FWIIW I can shake...just did it to make sure I was not full of blooie... a jug of Riches brew or Omega and not see ANY foaming

I know that there are various formulations of Armor All and some versions have a different silicone additive that leaves crusties on the plug element (according to others who I consider knowledgeable)

I do not have any where near the flight time of you or Rusty and I was not trying to be argumentative...just my point of view

Sorry I got you hackles up
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  pkrankow Fri May 20, 2016 5:29 pm

The old armor all that destroyed vinyl is the stuff with the good anti-foam properties.  The new stuff, not so much.

FWIW I looked up a bunch of stuff and Gas-x is the same stuff as the old armor all. (I don't plan to experiment with this though)

Phil
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  Ken Cook Fri May 20, 2016 6:00 pm

Fred, I saw one of  the posts on the other forums. My feathers don't get ruffled.  In fact one of the posters on the one forum  is a friend of mine and attends our stunt contest in July. TO each is own I suppose.  There's not always a simple solution to a plane that vibrates.  A modern engine isn't always  going to be the fix and in fact it can even complicate matters further. Airframe and engine crutch design is critical. This may not be able to be changed. If a plane is going to shake , it's going to shake.

My experiences are control line only and metal tanks regardless of isolation practices can foam fuel. In addition, for those that run uniflow, if the fuel is indeed foaming, uniflow isn't going to work properly. Therefore, Armor All is introduced to help calm things down. You don't pour in ounces, you pump 4-5 spritzes into a gallon.

               I can call my experimentation pretty much controlled. Knowing a lot of control liners in this hobby and knowing how some can be frugal at times, where did the so called failed plug come from? How much Armor All was used? What brand of plug was it? Was it a plug that they had already had in their pit box that was already subjected to hours of use? How long prior to using the Armor blended fuel was that plug already in the engine? If there was a need for Armor All I can certainly say without a doubt the engine had been vibrating prior. This also tells me that they more than likely didn't switch out the plug due to the fact the engine was still running on the old plug. I see this all the time. I get the old "Well it's glowing". I see it in combat, one hits the ground cleans the crud off cleans out the engine and fires it up.

         I used to use Sig Champion years back which came in plastic jugs, when shaken, the fuel foams up and bubbles. When a spritzing of Armor All was applied, you didn't see a single bubble. I have seen this equally with plastic tanks, I switched to Dubro Sintered Bronze pickups and this extremely helped with planes with vibration issues.  

             The funny thing about this hobby is that 20 people will have 20 different answers and experiences.
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  roddie Fri May 20, 2016 7:00 pm

If 4-5 spritzes of the correct formulation/gal. provides satisfactory anti-foaming results.. then we're talking maybe a drop or two/oz. of fuel. I honestly can't see that little of an amount gumming anything up. This thread is about fuel blending.. with storage containers as a side-note. One could always try to establish a control.. by mixing pints of fuel with a measured amount of anti-foaming additive.. for a given model, having a vibration issue.. and record it's performance while running only that pint in the engine. Label the pint for the model.. and only run it in that engine. A test-pint would generally be enough for 3-4 flights in a model with a 4oz. tank... right?

I am however surprised at the effects I've heard.. that degraded rubber from inside an old fuel-bulb can have on a glow-plug element. I have an old bulb that I use.. which concerns me. Wondering now; whether a few spritzes of Armor-All rubber protectant might help keep it from drying out in storage.. and kill two birds with one stone?
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  fredvon4 Sat May 21, 2016 7:31 am

Ken as always I value you opinions, the time you take to explain things

Since I prepare my fuel in small pint or quart quantities, what do you think would be a proper amount of anti foam additive?
Of the typical products we can get today...which one do you think I should try?

Most of my stunt profiles are using GRW uniflo or Sillivan clunk and I agree the sintered bronze pick up is good for the clunk


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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  RknRusty Sat May 21, 2016 9:32 am

Fred, for a quart, I usually lay the cap upside down on the table and give it a One shot spritz. Screw it on and shake er up and call it done. I've done it with Sig in the see-through bottles and it does the trick.

Roddie, a drop in an ounce of fuel would be much too much, as what I call a spritz is a short blast of fine spray that probably adds up to a drop. In a gallon, I've put as much as three spray shots in a gallon and peeked in after shaking and don't see any foam.
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  pkrankow Fri May 27, 2016 11:32 am

pkrankow wrote:The old armor all that destroyed vinyl is the stuff with the good anti-foam properties.  The new stuff, not so much.

FWIW I looked up a bunch of stuff and Gas-x is the same stuff as the old armor all.  (I don't plan to experiment with this though)

Phil

I didn't plan to experiment, but experiment I did.

I took a gas-x liquid filled gelcap and some fuel I have been soaking parts in that will be thrown away anyways (about 12 oz of fuel). I punctured the gelcap with a pin and squeezed the contents into the dirty fuel. The clear liquid dispersed into the fuel very quickly. My nose was assaulted with strong minty freshness. The liquid is very greasy.

I will not be running this fuel. The parts were removed prior to the experiment. The fuel will be disposed of as it is full of sediment from cleaning parts.

Phil
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  larrys4227 Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:05 am

I've used ArmourAll for decades .... never had any issues with plugs, or any other ill effects. All of my tanks are hard-mounted. There is no place to insert foam, or any other type of vibration dampening ... its the reason I use AA to begin with. It's all preventative ---> I can't see inside my metal tanks, and want to make sure something I can't see isn't causing a problem.

My AA is in a small dropper bottle. My fuel is transferred into plastic quart containers, and I've learned that 2 drops p/quart eliminates all foam/bubbles no matter how hard/long I shake the fuel container. 1 drop gets rid of most, but still slight foaming, so my habit is 2 drops.

Just my opinion (#3 of 20), but I will continue to use it in all my fuel.
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Post  Marleysky Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:28 pm

Hey all you Fuel mixing experts! Found a guy who has a gallon of "pure nitromethane " and 2 gallons of "Alcohol " for sale.  I sent him a request for more info on the alcohol. The cox fuel Rx calls for methanol is there a difference?  Yeah I know, I won't drink it. I'm not sure, I think he is into drag racing so what he has may be for Nitro fuel funny cars and or alcohol fuel dragsters. Any opinion would be appreciated. thanks
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  KariFS Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:41 pm

Marley, Check this out:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cxd_CH2NIWE

Most of the movies of this type are for testing if your moonshine is safe Beers But the #1 risk with moonshine is excessive methanol content.

Not sure what you mean by asking if there is any difference but anyway... "I don't know but I've been told", a glow engine won't run on ethanol as methanol only has the "right stuff" to keep the glowplug glowing. I don't remember the chemistry details behind the process, but that was the essence of it.
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Post  fredvon4 Fri Jun 03, 2016 12:51 pm

yes there is a difference but in this case I bet he has Methanol and the answer from him will probably agree

Just as a reference the Torco Nitro gallon is $53.75 with shipping and a gallon of Methanol is $28.45 again with shipping

If the cost is lower to you with shipping may be a good deal you found

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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  RknRusty Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:54 pm

KariFS wrote:... "I don't know but I've been told", a glow engine won't run on ethanol as methanol only has the "right stuff" to keep the glowplug glowing. I don't remember the chemistry details behind the process, but that was the essence of it.
I think ethanol will catalyze with the platinum somewhat, but not as efficiently as methanol.

Before I stamp that statement with the Rusty Seal of Approval, I'll ask my son. I usually talk with him on Friday evenings. Then I'll come back and reinforce or delete what I just said.

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Post  roddie Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:10 pm

FWIW.. Methanol is the technical name for methyl alcohol. It is also known as "wood alcohol".. but you don't often hear it referred to as that. "Wood-spirits", "wood-naphtha" and "methyl hydrate" are other names for methanol.

Methanol wiki
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Thinking Re: Fuel blending and storage

Post  Marleysky Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:07 pm

fredvon4 wrote:yes there is a difference but in this case I bet he has Methanol and the answer from him will probably agree

Just as a reference the Torco Nitro gallon is $53.75 with shipping and a gallon of Methanol is $28.45 again with shipping

If the cost is lower to you with shipping may be a good deal you found


Fred- his add says he paid $100 for all three on Amazon, he's asking $75.so it's a OK deal, not a super savings. We'll see, I have not heard back from him yet...I may be better off just ordering a quart of two of hobbico or fitz fuels for freshness.

Roddie-thanks for the info. That's sort of what I thought, but was unsure.

Kari - this is for my cox engines, I wouldn't think of messing with Granny's moonshine recipe! It's her secret.
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Post  Oldenginerod Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:33 am

I would be 99% confident that the "alcohol" refered to in drag racing circles would be methanol..  I buy my methanol in 20 litre drums from a supplier who stocks it specifically for the local Kart club.  Cost me about $45 AUD for 20 lt.  Got a 5 litre bottle of Nitro for about $75 AUD and 5 lt of castor for $35.  Trouble is, the nitro and castor travelled home a couple of thousand km with me from a Queensland holiday, so to get new stock it's gonna cost me another holiday by car.  Having said that, I only realised after I had travelled through the road tunnel under Sydney that I just broke the law with the nitro in my car.  High explosives (oxidizing agents) can be a bit of a problem ignited in a confined space like a tunnel.  Affraid or WOW!  Oh well, it was well hidden in my luggage.
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Thinking FWIIW

Post  fredvon4 Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:37 am

My initial buy of Torco Nitro and Methanol came in clear gallon jugs

Not being a chemistry savant I soon learned that most alcohols degrade from absorbing water from the air...plan...keep jug caped tight
I learned that Nitro-methane degrades mostly from UV light and this is when I decided to decant into metal cans

My recent purchase of both components from Torco (still same price from my 4 year ago initial purchase BTW), anyway they were delivered in White Opaque gallon jugs

Opinion: If you need a gallon of Nitro.. Torco gallon while a tad pricey is a good source and truth is if you RE-BLEND locally sourced fuels, the gallon of Nitro will go a long way...and with the new jug,, no need to transfer to a metal can

Oh and by the way...when we get water in the car gasoline it does not mix and we use stuff like HEAT (an alcohol concoction) to absorb and burn the water off...most all this water is from letting a car gas tank sit half full or lower level in humid air over night.
This will form condensation on the inside of the tank..I learned a long time ago to keep my fuel tank near full all the time

Water absorption in Methanol is near impossible to remove so must be prevented from the get go
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