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Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  fredvon4 on Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:44 am

I started a new off topic thread about testing and the M16

But to answer Balogh's good question

One has to know all the parts and function of the M16 and most other Gas operated rifles

Where the gas port in in the barrel
How much pressure is ported to the Bolt Carrier group to cycle the system reliably and NOT beat it to death

How to cam and gas check this power to create rearward unlocking, extracting, ejecting, cocking, and then froward to strip a cartridge, chamber and fire the next round

The bolt carrier group of an M16 has several close tolerance bits and over time changes in the metallurgy to meet the demands of Harsh environments and a soldiers keen ability to BREAK any thing

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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  Oldenginerod on Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:23 pm

ticomareado wrote:Oh dear God!! Please don't put pictures of guns here for us to see. Quick get me to the fainting couch!!

Agreed. Why do topics on here always seem to morph into gun discussions?
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Guns

Post  ticomareado on Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:05 pm

That's OK about guns. I was being a smart-ass. Oh, I forgot, you turned yours in down under.
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hmmmm .... tolerance

Post  xtal_01 on Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:05 pm

Funny, I keep seeing sooooooo many little comments that can explode into "hot" discussions.

I have to say, I have been amazed at just how tolerant everyone has been on this forum! In this day and age, it is very hard to talk with someone without "stepping on toes".

Guns, dreamers, illegal aliens, tariffs, the environment, health care, $15 min. wage, a living wage, ....... WOW!

I am proud to be an American but I was born in Canada which sometimes I think allows me to have a more worldly view of topics.

I also try (not always successful) to listen to all sides of an argument and then make up my mind. I try to understand how others feel while staying true to my own feelings.

I don't really fit any mold so I call myself an independent. I can been seen as left and right depending. Maybe a good example of this (trying to pick one that won't offend too many people) is solar power. Do I think we should steer away from fossil fuel ... sure (easy for me to say since I grew up just miles from Niagara Falls). Solar power ...sure ... not convinced how practical but why not ... every little bit helps. But when I supported a tariff on Chinese built cells, I got accused by a friend of being "anti-environmental". He said American made cells would be expensive and kill the industry. To this I answered 1) the jobs of installing cells are "service" jobs. Low paying and temporary. We are not actually making products to sell. 2) We do need to protect American jobs and have free trade only with countries that pay their workers similar wages to the USA. On the other hand, countries like Canada and Australia could decide to put a tariff on goods produced in the USA coming into their countries as we don't have universal health care (as they do, this adds to the cost of items they produce). 3) Producing cells is a dirty process. Do we want to have them produced where they simply dump their waste? Again, we need to have free trade with countries having similar EPA regulations to the USA.

As you can see ... I have friends saying I am left for supporting the use of solar cells and others saying I am right for supporting tariffs. Sometimes you just can't win.

I am the same way on most issues ... I live in a rural area where almost everyone has a gun. There really is no gun problem in the area I live. On the other hand, I know people who I don't trust with a lawn mower never mind a gun. Just no easy answers.

Anyway, now that I have gotten totally off topic .....

Incredible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! these small engines have come a loooooong way since I have been into the hobby. 33K - 36K RPM! That is unbelievable. The tolerances and machining must be phenomenal. As you noted, not cheap but then look what you are getting for the money. One of the first things we were taught was that tight tolerances mean high dollars.

The last job I had was operating a wire EDM machine. I could hold tolerances of +/- .0002 all day and tighter if I needed. Most of my work was on test jigs and tooling as most gauges need to be one magnitude better then what you are measuring. So if I need to check for +/- .005 the gauge needs to be +/- .0005 This machine cut slow and thus was expensive to run. As I said, high tolerances equal high dollars.

Sorry for all the questions but man I have leaned a lot from this forum!

Thanks again so very much !!!!!!!!

Mike





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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  KariFS on Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:29 am

Oldenginerod wrote:
ticomareado wrote:Oh dear God!! Please don't put pictures of guns here for us to see. Quick get me to the fainting couch!!

Agreed.  Why do topics on here always seem to morph into gun discussions?

Sorry for having contributed to the morphosis this time... I generally don't like guns, just as a duty as a citizen of my country I learned to use and maintain one (and during the process of learning the multiple ways to "use" the gun I became a bit of a pacifist). The only thing that interests me in guns is the engineering point of view, both the design itself and also the ways of manufacturing.
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  rsv1cox on Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:55 am

Xtal_01 Mike,

Again, welcome to the forum. I read all your posts and have learned a lot from you. Cox engines are the corner stone here but a wide range of topics are brought forward and discussed. The "Off topic" forum is well used but not abused, mostly because of the quality of the CEF members. I'm relatively new here, 3 1/2 years, but some have been around since Methuselah was a child. I won't name names.

Both you and ticomereado are newcomers but already you both have made an impact with your obvious knowledge of the technical, mechanical, and historical nature of the hobby.

Not to worry, many threads morph into something different, usually in a positive direction. Smile Acceptance is also a cornerstone here.

Bob
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Who is the target buyer today?

Post  xtal_01 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:41 am

Who buys 049 engines today and how big is the market?

People like myself are looking for older engines like I had as a kid just to do some playing with and keep the past alive.

At $200, is there now a hard core adult group who keep the hobby alive?

I am guessing ... and please correct me if I am wrong ... the hobby must have started out for adults ... was brought to kids as a toy by companies like Cox (you don't need to be a model builder, just buy a plastic plane from the story and fly it) ... and how is back to adult enthusiasts?


Mike


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Kid's toys or adult hobbies

Post  ticomareado on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:00 pm

I observed kids (ages 10 to 16) from the early 1960s to late 1980s spend their allowance/ yard mowing money on a variety of sports and hobbies and toys. (gas model planes and cars of one genre and level of sophistication or another), electric trains, plastic models, slot racers, skate boards, mini-bikes, science kits -- you name it.

Electronic games, Dungeons and Dragons and reefer were probably the biggest killers of a lot of the aforementioned.
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:24 pm

xtal_01

Ha.... too funny.... I got jazzed when I found this forum and started trying to relive my youth and quickly "Invested" more than was sane

We have, not so much lately, have a Tach race....you build a Cox engine and send it to a member to run it to max RPM and win or not

We also have an annual CoxPT 19 fly day or week here on CEF

Catches some without a real plastic Cox PT 19....so off to e-bay...junk broken for $30~$90 OR NIB for $90 to $300...seriously $300 !!! But rules are relaxed so you can fly a balsa representation of the PT 19

and so it goes...we have members here with modest ACCUMULATION like me with only 30 or so Cox engines others with literally Hundreds

The Guys who faithfully attend the SMALL event in Arkansas fly a LOT of Cox 1/2a models and all sorts of other dinky panes

1/2A combat is still alive and well all over the USA but the Cox TeeDee ....is low on the list of used engines\Same with racing or speed....BUT still Cox has a following

Then there are the guys who love the exotic Cox based engines from Bernie, Valentine and others

I managed to source several .049 TeeDee crank cases and make my own cobble together LH and RH very pretty TeeDees for a future twin project....

The combinations and colors are endless especially of you decide to anodize parts or buy anodized parts

Look into the history of the "Cox Engine of the month" to see the grand variety of winners and what they did

I am second generation Cox fiend...son is third, and grand son just thinks the screaming little buggers are so cool

With the literally millions of engines out there ----and a somewhat finite supply of parts from Matt and Bernie I suspect a fairly long life of this insane affliction
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  rsv1cox on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:51 pm

xtal_01 wrote:Who buys 049 engines today and how big is the market?

People like myself are looking for older engines like I had as a kid just to do some playing with and keep the past alive.

At $200, is there now a hard core adult group who keep the hobby alive?

I am guessing ... and please correct me if I am wrong ... the hobby must have started out for adults ... was brought to kids as a toy by companies like Cox (you don't need to be a model builder, just buy a plastic plane from the story and fly it) ... and how is back to adult enthusiasts?


Mike



Surely you must frequent ebay, and this is the last time I will call you Surely.

Just type in almost anything and add engine behind it, Cox, Atwood, Holland, Wen-Mac, Testors, OS, Enya, McCoy, Fuji, Vivell, Rogers, names times 100 and you will probably find any model engine that you had as a child. Just stay away from ebay Enya's, they are a nasty poor running excuse for a model engine.

But be careful, when I first logged on here I had maybe five engines, well alright maybe seven. Now 200+ would be a conservative estimate. They don't all sit idle either, most have been carefully disassembled and cleaned, many have been test stand run. Only one, by my dizzy hand has been in the air.

Bob
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  Paulgibeault on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:09 pm

xtal_01 wrote:Who buys 049 engines today and how big is the market?
People like myself are looking for older engines like I had as a kid just to do some playing with and keep the past alive.
At $200, is there now a hard core adult group who keep the hobby alive?
I am guessing ... and please correct me if I am wrong ... the hobby must have started out for adults ... was brought to kids as a toy by companies like Cox (you don't need to be a model builder, just buy a plastic plane from the story and fly it) ... and how is back to adult enthusiasts?
Mike

HI Mike,
Enough people buy Cox 049's to keep the small company Cox International (based in Williams Lake B.C. in Canada) going, at least for now. Cox Int'l also sells non Cox stuff to no doubt supplement their small retail business.  Owner Bernie Eisele can tell you more about that.

Other businesses, like Brodak still import "sport" engines from Russia. I don't know what quantities Brodak deals in. Some Picco's P Zero's, have been bought for as little as $35 from the distributor, but it's thought to be a "blow out sale" price. Cyclon, in Novosibirsk increased his prices a lot because he doesn't like messing with the small bore engines. I'm guessing it's a small Niche market of high performance competition C/L combat & F/F power people. There are a few (mostly East Block) companies that produce their own $200+ .049 and 1cc motors, but in quite small quantities.  A google search of FAI F1J Free Flight will show the current variety.

Note: Up until F/F model tracking systems were developed, it was considered crazy to risk losing a $300 engine in a F/F power model!
There are always small niche groups (worldwide) with the money to keep the hobby alive. They are mostly not youngsters though! They are aging adults with the money to buy back their childhoods. Like me for example!
There are also some oddities like the Shuriken .05. They are so pretty that they are currently bought and traded as display collectibles with no thought of actually running them. Ebay prices of over $800 have been seen for a new engine. On the C/L contest flying fields, I'm the only user that I know of...

I can't say for sure if the hobby was primarily for adults, but I suspect it was. However, back 40-60 years ago (in the heyday of Cox), there were A LOT of youngsters 12+ yrs of age. The Cox .049 was often their first trainer motor after which they went on to bigger and better things (or quit). One thing I do recall, is salvaging the Cox 049 out of the crashed plastic nasty model and then building a balsa model for it that REALLY flew and was repairable. That step often lead to the development of a modeller who continued the sport.

You are quite right in that this sport has regressed back to ~ 98% adult enthusiasts AND rapidly aging enthusiasts at that!!

Cheers, Paul

p.s Note the "pretty Shuriken" compared to the Cox Tee Dee. BTW, only the Red engine really performed well. The others were thrown together from auctioned / aftermarket parts for the collectors.  Came originally in Red, then Gold, then Blue and Purple!!
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  gkamysz on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:54 pm

Cyclon? Aren't they gone, like disappeared gone?
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  Paulgibeault on Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:14 pm

gkamysz wrote:Cyclon? Aren't they gone, like disappeared gone?

I don't know for sure, they may be as their website doesn't seem to be working,  from Martin Gregoire's engine site...
I haven't heard any news like that from Europe...
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  gkamysz on Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:03 pm

It's been ages, since anyone has heard from Kalmykov, but I'm not in the circle. http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10238
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  Paulgibeault on Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:24 pm

gkamysz wrote:It's been ages, since anyone has heard from Kalmykov, but I'm not in the circle. http://controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10238

Will those old (2013) messages from Europe (and I personally know the senders) it's evident that Cyclon is indeed no more and whoose ever left there has turned the business into a SCAM. Such a shame... I only wish I knew what had happened, as I knew Sasha Kalmikov personally. We fell out of contact many years ago though...Sad
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$800 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post  xtal_01 on Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:38 pm

WOW ... I expected a fine tuned specialty engine would be in a couple hundred, I never thought $800!

I expected a very rare old collectable engine to go for money like this but not a new engine.

Funny, exactly how I got into the hobby. My first engine came from my Stuka and second from a PT-19. After that is was balsa kits then scratch built planes.

It is amazing when you think of it how many lessons a kid learns from a "toy" airplane. I know this lead me directly into two stroke dirt bike engines ... that lead to cars ... that lead to .... you get the idea.

Then the lessons learned in building the planes, linkages, controls, .... all things that you can build on.

Mike


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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  Davenz13 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:16 am

In June 2014 I made enquiries about purchasing a Cyclon engine through the Cyclon website. I was sent several price/specification lists for various engines. I was dealing with ( well, the name on the email I received back) was Aleksandr Kalmykov of Novosibirsk Russia and, although it could have been, I had no reason to believe it was a scam. The website www.rusengines.ru no longer seems to be available. I still have Aleks email but haven’t tried to contact him since 2014
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How about custome, one off engines?

Post  xtal_01 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:10 pm

As you noted there are some very "hot" stock engines. I can only imagine there are guys out there that modify these to build a true race engine.

What about one off engines? Are there guys out there building engines either completely or maybe building most of it and using a few production parts?

I tried to do a search .... found hit and miss engines, radial engines, miniature V8 engines, jet engines .... just about every type of engine you can image but not an 049

Mike
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Custom Engines

Post  ticomareado on Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:19 pm

How about Ronald Valentine?
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Just did a search on his name

Post  xtal_01 on Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:34 pm

Just did a search .... what a master at his craft!

Those engines are a piece of art.

I can't even imagine the hours of labor in them.

Mike

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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  Davenz13 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:53 am

Doug Galbreath, mentioned earlier, is one of the many type of tuners you mention. The first picture shows two engines, on the right the Picco car engine Doug uses as the base motor and on the left what it looks like when Doug has worked his magic. A number of the base motors were being sold on eBay back in 2014 for $80ea so I grabbed one, quite a drop from the tag price of $249. Doug’s engine was $215 including a couple of props and two spare plugs.




Clarence Lee, who held many records in his day, and was inducted in the  AMA  Academy's Hall Of Fame in 1983, is another of many such talented people. I am fortunate to have two NIB C F Lee tuned engines.
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  Ken Cook on Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:11 am

I owned 4 of those Picco engines. All but one broke the crankshaft. I was going to have Doug do one for me. Sold the last one. It worked well when it was working but it was problematic for airplane use. It doesn't utilize a standard prop size hole for 1/2A which required enlarging . I had to ream all props larger making the props specific to the engine. In addition, the lugs were very narrow and  close to the case with the case having a substantial radius on it making mounting difficult. Then there was the issue of it's displacement, making it not legal for 1/2A combat. While I saw no extreme advantage over the competitive engines, the Picco equates to larger than .049 making the other flyers not so happy.
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  fredvon4 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:30 pm

I still have two of the last Ofna Picco P-0 car engines $24 each....sold out a long time now

I had one of Doug Galbraith's initial Aero reworks but traded it to Jeff Dawson for things he had that I wanted.

Last year Doug G told me he could not turn my engines into Aero as he had used all his parts and did not expect to make any more

Three years ago I had a great back and forth e-mail with Aleksandr Kalmykov trying to buy a Cyclon .049...sent Western Union over $280 US
He retrieved the bucks and then went dark... a full year of trying every way to get him to tell me when the engines and parts would be made and sent....nothing....gave up and wrote it off....life is too short for the hyer tension it was causing me

In case any one thinks I am full of it...I have the entire e-mail stream archived
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  fredvon4 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:44 pm

BTW every thing Ken said above is correct .... screaming little power house more suited to FF or racing use and not so good for combat

I think curious about the displacement tho...Doug told me he de-stroked the engine to fit in Pure 1/2a max displacement legally

NOW he did make some few with standard bore and stroke as delivered from OFNA...so perhaps Ken had those versions

I am sort of surprised that one of the creators of the Shuriken has not done another run.....small numbers...considering the price the danged beauty commands....I have seen beat to death scarred and well abused versions on Evil Bay for over $400 and NIB-- so called never run--command up to $1200...usually the secondary versions* after break up version go for $700~$900

*Ken may elaborate but you can search the Shuriken history.....I believe Ken''s avatar is still his a beautiful red one

I held a Gold one in hand... was a Jewel!
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Re: Why the cast aluminum body on new engines?

Post  Davenz13 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:57 pm

Thanks for the info Ken and Fred, it’s good to get it from people who have used the engines in question.
I’m mainly a collector with nil experience in actually running any of these hot rod engines, only run of the mill stuff.
The off the shelf engine must have been oversize otherwise I guess Doug wouldn’t have gone to the trouble of de-stroking it.
Also 0.8cc is only .04881 yet he lists it as .050 and I wouldn’t have thought he would have got a 1/2A Proto record with an oversize engine so I’m a little confused on this.  He mentions the fragile crank in the write up as well.

I'm also glad I resisted the temptation to try to buy a Cyclon engine back then as after reading your experience Fred I would probably be in the same position as you

P-zero .050
This is a converted Buggy engine I have modified for Free Flight and control-line 1/2A Proto speed.
The crank, case, piston, sleeve and rod are Buggy parts. I make the spinner, prop driver, venturi, needle valve & head. The clamp ring is a modified Buggy part. The crank is modified with an 8mm sleeve and bearing, de-stroked, and the rod bushing is replaced with a smaller diameter bushing.
The crank shaft is a bit fragile and care must be taken if using an electric starter. DO NOT crank a flooded engine with an electric starter! This is the same engine that holds the 1/2A Proto record.
$215.00
**Add $6.50 Priority USPS
*I can retrofit your crankshaft with the 8mm sleeve - $35.00. Send case and crank.
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