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Post  ian1954 on Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:54 pm

When I started aeromodelling in the 1960s, life was much simpler and aeromodelling was a popular hobby.

Control line and free flight were the norm with the emphasis on control line. Radio control had just started but the expense was prohibitive. However I did notice that the few RC flyers were often met with prejudice.

As well as a plethora of model shops, there were many clubs - one within walking distance of my current address and at least 5 within 6 miles.

We were allowed to fly in public parks and school playing fields. IC flight in publice parks is now banned and our schools now bear a striking resemblance to prisoner of war camps. Heavy metal fencing and locked tight,

The balance has changed - the club I am a member of has 150 members but there are only 5 control liners. The flying site is 25 miles away and the control line area is only mown twice a year for special events. I have also joined a dedicated control line club - 12 members but the site is 45 miles away and only available on Sunday afternoons. RC flyers tend to hold control liners in low esteem but here I am referring to RC fixed wing flyers and they, in general, have developed a dislike of helicopter an quadcopter pilots. (I dislike the term "Drone" now being applied to anything flown remotely large or small unless it is a weapon of war. The use of this term has effectively turned public opinion against remote control flight as merely a hobby. )

However, as quadcopter flying hasn't generally been recognised or accepted as another branch of aeromodelling and not welcomed at traditional clubs - a younger generation have got used to flying anywhere and everywhere. I have watched them in my local park racing and doing freestyle flying and I have received quite alot of assistance from them with FPV and flight controllers.

I have quite a few indoor quads that I can fly in any weather but I also have a DJI Mavic, Spark and a Mini. These make RC flying a doddle - let go of the sticks and it stays where you left it - press a button and it returns to home and it lands almost exactly where it took off - if I leave it in the air too long and the battery runs low, it overrides and returns to home. Photography is superb with many options.

It is not the same as flying fixed wing - much simpler but not as exciting or challenging unless racing or freestyling. (both these are beyond my skills)

In the UK - the BMFA (US equiv AMA) has 50,000 members last year (now falling). Yet over 750,000 quadcopters have been sold. The rift is enormous and I find this distressing.

We are now all treated as "Drone" flyers and have to register with the CAA (US equiv FAA) for a flyer ID and an operator ID which has to be displayed on all models over 250g. We also have to carry certificates denoting competence to fly and are restricted to 400ft height. Not a problem for me but for some in hillier parts of the country - this is measured from plane to ground.

That aside, all this registration has caused many to drop the hobby. The other sad fact is that the clubs I am a member of have no members und 40 years of age - average age in the high 60s and NO youngsters at all!

Most of the quadcopter flyers I have met are sub 35 years old and as the technology they are familiar with has been transferred to fixed wing - flight controllers, GPS navigation, first person view, camera recording, telemetry ... they are starting to invest in fixed wing but .... sub 250g and not interested in old fogeys clubs.

We have to remember that quite a few club members don't have or use internet. The latest technology for fixed wing has quite a learning curve with a degree of PC literacy to set up flight controllers with INAV or Ardupilot but my point is that the quadcopter brethren have not been absorbed into the aeromodelling community.

I now have several fixed wing models operated through flight controllers, My latest is a sub 250g Strix Nano Goblin with the full works. It is capable of 40 minute flights with my setup from Park Flyer to completely out of sight (not legal).

Now what worries me is the FAA proposed rules which look likely to kill our hobby.

The key points being that registration isn't enough.

All models will have to be tracked and fitted with a location device unless you fly at an AMA site or restrict your flying to a max distance of 400ft (after connecting to the internet from your launch point to register your position). You will not be able o fit your own location device.

Now this may be a loose description but I can't imagine the quad flyers wanting to be restricted to a small open area or them being welcomed - yet they outnumber us many times.

Significantly though, it means that you chaps with open land that fly quite happily may find yourselves flying illegally even though you are miles from anywhere because the site isn't a registered flying site AMA or you don't comply with the location ID rules.

It also looks as if they will scrap the sub 250g exemption.  The future looks bleak. We have gone from having our fields closed through noise towards and almost outright ban.

In case you are wondering about the technolgy available to us - here is a playlist of a "BrainDart" build. I have used the same setup in the Nano Goblin,

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Post  andrew on Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:06 pm

You're certainly singing to the choir here and I expect none of the forum members would disagree with any of your points.

Our hobby has become the victim of the tail wagging the dog and of a bloated FAA needing to justify its ever increasing budget. In January of 2020, the FAA reported just over 1.5 million registered drones. I suspect there are likely 5 or more times as many unregistered drones flying. I tried to find if any fatal air accidents were attributed to drones, but have not located any reports as such. In 2018, some 4 billion people flew 46 million miles --- one would think if drones were becoming such a threat, there would have been a major incident, particularly with the number of flights and number of drones. Incident reports involve mainly the sighting of a drone by commercial aircraft.

There was a meme on FB that stated: "The best way to stop drunk drivers from hitting sober drivers is to stop sober drivers from driving." While a bit far-fetched, it does represent an example of sweeping regulations imposed by a government entity to control something that hasn't happened yet. Secondly, the group of flyers that the FAA regulations are trying to corral are not the ones inclined to obey any rules or laws. The mentality is, if we can't stop the outlaws, then let's try to stop them all. I believe it will be totally ineffective in implementing the proposed intent.
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Post  944_Jim on Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:43 pm

Of course, all you mention is bleak. I fly my CL.toys on a church parking lot a good distance from other roads/other people.

While I see your points as valid and disturbing, I am most afraid of what my next new car may look like, and how it will be driven. The same autonomy that makes RC-anything fly "home" or away will also invade the hobby car industry. I imagine steering wheels and pedals (if not gasoline too) will be illegal by the time my boys may be interested in being curators of a private auto museum (Triumph TR6, Porsche 944, Honda's S-90 and CB1100F).

Progress has it's costs, and one of those costs is obsolescence of anything antique and fun. I'm so glad to be growing old with my wife!


Last edited by 944_Jim on Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Mark Diedrichs on Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:40 pm

Who knows what the future will bring. Before you know it, we be using our cell phones to run these model engines into the abyss!!! Time marches on Bros. We just have to learn how to adapt (if we can) and I'm sure we will!!! Mark
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Post  dckrsn on Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:57 pm

Mark Diedrichs wrote: We just have to learn how to adapt (if we can) and I'm sure we will!!! Mark
Wise words, Mark.
I think a lot of us have been adapting for a while.
So far, so good. Wink
Bob
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Post  balogh on Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:25 pm

In a small country like mine finding a flying field where you do not disturb or provoke someone with a noisy COX RC plane - no matter how small it is- is getting difficult. The field I go to is illegal for flying there..not because too near to an airport, housing projects or similar, but simply because not having the permit..I feel a knot in my stomach every time I go there to either being reported by someone to authorities or once seeing excacavators and dumpers there because the land may once be sold for construction..back in the day in 1974 I flew my first COX Super Sport Trainer on the outdoors basketball
field of the highschool I went to, wedged between living quarters without feeling any knot in my stomach..
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Post  MauricioB on Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:33 am

Dear Ian and friends, it has happened in the whole world that in general this is a hobby that produces personal satisfaction.
It never became popular and for that reason, it never became a big business like football.
What is the matter with our hobby ?, We are few in the world, we need a prudent space and that is not a business for the authorities, for this reason, we are increasingly difficult to do the activity naturally.
Technology advances by leaps and bounds and many younger people are related to the virtual, a rare mix of little manual and outdoor activity, lots of fantasy and ease.
Our hobby, needs some dedication, therefore work, and that desire to work, it seems that they are beginning to be scarce in the world… .in last weekend in clean and summary:
It is not a popular activity, nor is it an activity that is powerful enough in consumption, so that the authorities mean interest in the economic, it is simply a hobby that is sustained by the passion and love in the world of a few.
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Post  fredvon4 on Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:07 am

"There was a meme on FB that stated: "The best way to stop drunk drivers from hitting sober drivers is to stop sober drivers from driving." While a bit far-fetched, it does represent an example of sweeping regulations imposed by a government entity to control something that hasn't happened yet. Secondly, the group of flyers that the FAA regulations are trying to corral are not the ones inclined to obey any rules or laws. The mentality is, if we can't stop the outlaws, then let's try to stop them all. I believe it will be totally ineffective in implementing the proposed intent."

ten million flight hours every day in every hemisphere
Coronavirus is real threat in every country.....absolute lack of traveler control....except Australia quarantine to Christmas Island
sadly I am wrong about traveler control.....Great Britain has a good protocol, as does Israel, and ALL communist countries...

https://www.flightradar24.com/31.21,-98.01/10....... play with this to see the folly of AOC green deal.....we human fly a LOT and consume a butt load of fuel

back on point:
lawmakers are constipated....they need votes....they know the public is uneducated and under informed...guns are evil, so are drunk drivers, so is Drones, so are PTSD Veterans or Cops, .....

BUT THE REALLY PIST ME OFF FACT IS......THE LAWS THEY PASS ONLY EVER AFFECT LAW ABIDING FOLK.....IDJITS, FIDIOTS, CRIMINALS, SOCIOPATHS...DO NOT GIVE A GOOD DAMN ABOUT ANY LAW...LOGIC 101

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Post  Marleysky on Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:59 pm

Yup, there is a gigantic humongous cow pie of information and mis-information about what’s gonna happen to our hobby. I am gonna submit a response to the FAA detailing my dislike of the “proposed new rules” but from past experience in dealing with local, community, township, school boards, city commission, state boards and now Federal levels asking for “public input” is just a small formality in the legal process to impose and force new regulations on a unsuspecting public. I have yet to see a “public input” conversation or letter writing campaign that successfully changed or overturned a governing body’s response to implementing new rules, zoning, regulations or control. They have been bought and paid for by the party who wants/needs the new rules/laws.
IE: Nestle’ requests to local hick-town government and state environmental overseeing body to increase “permitted “ withdrawal of water from fresh water spring from 120 to 400 gallons per minute. They received some 88,000 NO letters to about 6 or 8 Yes letters, during “public input”  . Well ( pun intended) the state agreed with large multinational corporation that’s OK to take that “Free Water” .....same as the FAA is gonna take away our, up to now , “Free Air”.  Really, really sad.

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Post  fredvon4 on Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:36 pm

I have been responding to every proposed rule making by NON ELECTED entities since I was first licensed as KD5NCO in the 90s

AMA
DOT
FAA
FCC
HUD
local entities seeking input

100% of the time MY ===and thousands other POVs ===has been ignored---even when the majority opinion or POV is contrary to the Proposed rule making

after a bit... ( and this is by design) all opposing pov folks, shrugs shoulders and stops participating....this is BY DESIGN....

we really need a USA convention of states and force lawmaker elected officials to be limited and accountable...this is NOt just USA...Germany, EU, France, Great Britain, Australia, immigration, sharia law, taxation, social medicine, politics in asia (hong kong, indonesia) (( pay attention Virginia))

Wild fires blamed on Man Made Climate change....yes Virginia Brazill, Australia, California wildfires are significant events.....BUT you never hear about the 7~9 currently active volcanoes....each one,,,,, putting more crap in the air than 10,000 years of man...and industrie.....Hummmmmmm



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Post  Mark Diedrichs on Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:21 pm

Wow, Just hope the new forum tee shirts will be out before the apocalypse!!! Mark
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Post  ticomareado on Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:57 pm

Y'all don't want to get me started.
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Post  dckrsn on Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:21 pm

ticomareado wrote:Y'all don't want to get me started.
C'mon, we're commiserating. Jump in, it's a forum.
Bob
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Post  dckrsn on Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:36 pm

Mark Diedrichs wrote:Wow, Just hope the new forum tee shirts will be out before the apocalypse!!! Mark
Hopefully, I want to be dressed appropriately.Shocked
Bob
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Post  GallopingGhostler on Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:15 am

fredvon4 wrote:100% of the time MY ===and thousands other POVs ===has been ignored---even when the majority opinion or POV is contrary to the Proposed rule making after a bit... ( and this is by design) all opposing pov folks,  shrugs shoulders and stops participating.... this is BY DESIGN....
Bienvenida al orden de mundo nuevo. (Welcome to the New World Order).

fredvon4 wrote:we really need a USA convention of states and force lawmaker elected officials to be limited and accountable...this is NOt just USA...Germany, EU, France, Great Britain, Australia,  immigration, sharia law, taxation, social medicine, politics in asia (hong kong, indonesia) (( pay attention Virginia))

Never will happen. We can already see this. World wide, the politicians except for very few no longer feel responsible to their people but their own agendas and appetites.

fredvon4 wrote:Wild fires blamed on Man Made Climate change....yes Virginia Brazill, Australia, California wildfires are significant events.....BUT you never hear about the 7~9 currently active volcanoes....each one,,,,, putting more crap in the air than 10,000 years of man...and industrie.....Hummmmmmm

It is about control and money making by corporations.

I don't intend to get too deeply involved in discussion of this, because this is after all a model engine and airplane forum. But if you do a little search on the likes of Paul Craig Roberts, former assistant treasury secretary to Ronald Reagan, for starters, you'll find a plethora of information on his observations, which seems spot on.
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Post  getback on Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:22 am

I don't know what is happening with our hobby other than Most young people nowadays are just not willing to put the time / devotion into doing anything that distracts them from there easy way of life! The only way to be more effective in changing things would bee more interest Two Cents Just happy to have lived the life i have without all the politics when i was in my youth And to be able to still get a little piece of the ole way of action . Beer Cheers sunny Small Cox Logo Babe Bee .049
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Post  andrew on Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:18 am

getback wrote:..........Most young people nowadays are just not willing to put the time / devotion into doing anything that distracts them from there easy way of life!  The only way to be more effective in changing things would bee more interest.................

Sadly, I think you're absolutely correct. Several of us in my club (it's quite small) have breakfast at a local eatery on Saturday mornings. Out of seven of us, I'm next to the youngest -- I'm 72. And therein lies the problem.
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Post  Kim on Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:40 am

andrew wrote:
getback wrote:..........Most young people nowadays are just not willing to put the time / devotion into doing anything that distracts them from there easy way of life!  The only way to be more effective in changing things would bee more interest.................

Sadly, I think you're absolutely correct.  Several of us in my club (it's quite small) have breakfast at a local eatery on Saturday mornings.  Out of seven of us, I'm next to the youngest -- I'm 72.  And therein lies the problem.

Yeah, unfortunately, I don't see much changing.  

The Breezy Hill Flyers are constantly inviting youth groups like the Boy Scouts out to field for some R/C flight time (I would have freaked out at the same opportunity when I was a kid), with little response.  The few times I've been involved, the prospective pilots quickly jaded when they realized they'd actually have to learn something, no matter how simple I tried to make it.

Our youngest member-12 or 13 years-quickly becomes bored and dismissive with being told to check his plane and the field for other flyers before shooting the juice to his electric Cub.  He has trouble keeping his eyes on it while he's flying, turning to talk to other flyers while the model is in the air.  The plane was bought by his dad, ready to go, and he just shrugs and grins when told he could lose it if he doesn't watch it...with the insinuation that his dad will just get him another one if it flys away.

Things will never be the same, and about all we can do is keep the doors open for the rare bird who might see this stuff as something special.
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Post  rsv1cox on Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:55 am

The root cause of all this and the elephant in the room is ……...Terrorism, 9/11/2001, Arab/Israel conflict, people, land, money, etc, etc, etc...……. Come on comet!
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Post  ticomareado on Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:53 pm

Absolutely nothing since 9/11 has made us "safer". Just submissive. Too many morons like the one Andrew described getting their made in China "drones" for Christmas. Unreal how the AMA cucked to that thieving thug Anthony Foxx who got out of Charlotte in the nick of time to evade criminal indictments and went to Washington DC to be Sec. of Transportation. That idiot had it set for a while that you had to be registered to fly U/C models.
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Post  Eddy on Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:32 pm

Something did happen to our hobby. I believe it may have started in the 1950's. The advent of the Television set was a whole new norm, as families gather'd around to watch, Ed Sullivan, Gun Smoke, I love Lucy and the rest that would follow. The down towns crept out into the suburbs, the population explosion in the 60's and 70's as both husbands and wives worked for the dream of having all the more. Different hobbies were all but taken up the old school field. Little League, Soccer, Soft Ball, Rocket Football and it goes on. Now there were 50,000 lawn mowers cutting grass on any given night, but the few U-control plane made the most noise, space is a premium, and every one wants just a little square of it. The advent of the computer, and now the computer games pull all the more away, does anybody remember, The 7th Guest? After computers, it's now the new form of commutation called, Cell Phones, you now have a computer in your hand. No more TV, no more radio, no one really has a conversation anymore, every body is head down typing. What has happened to our hobby? Some call it progress, the age of knowing more, but never actually doing anything with it. As for me, I still build and fly u-control, I just love the smell of burning castor oil, can't really tell you why anymore after all these years. The few of us left with our planes are sadly getting full of wrinkles, and if some have any hair left, it's gray now. Our children, (kids) all have lives of their own, and sadly, there few left to hand down what once was such a great hobby. I have to go now, since I don't even have a cell phone, that thing that hangs on the wall, that just keeps ringing, and ringing, I have to get up and answer another robo call. Welcome to 2020.
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Post  Marleysky on Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:24 pm

rsv1cox wrote:The root cause of all this and the elephant in the room is ……...Terrorism, 9/11/2001, Arab/Israel conflict, people, land, money, etc, etc, etc...……. Come on comet!

Here we go, Bob:    
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Post  rsv1cox on Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:40 pm

Right on Eddy,

My son and I were in IHOP the other day, that bastion of decadence and subversion, and everyone had their noses in a cell phone from the youngest to the oldest.

If we have lost grandpa and grandma we have lost the battle. That said, I know I'm the odd ball, I have just a flip phone.

And Rene. Love it. Sometimes I think we should just chuck it and start all over. Adapt? Maybe. But in the years to come we are going to see enormous changes with 5G and AI. We may just tech ourselves right out of existence.

Bob
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Post  944_Jim on Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:17 pm

Eddy hit it out of the park!
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Post  Dave P. on Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:12 pm

rsv1cox wrote: That said, I know I'm the odd ball, I have just a flip phone.

Bob

Don't drop that phone Bob.  My flip phone died a short time ago.  I took it in to the Sprint shop to get it fixed.  The nice young man looked at it, looked at me and looked back at my phone.  He asked me a couple questions and started banging on his keyboard.  Then he smiled. Then he grinned and hollered "Hey Chuck!  I gotcha beat!  This guy's got a flip phone from 04 he wants to get fixed!".

Don't drop that phone.
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