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A brief Cox product buyout history
Page 1 of 1
A brief Cox product buyout history
Cox International Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:33 pm
In response to Warren’s question in another thread.
Warren,
Yes, when one pieces the various posts together it can be confusing.
Let’s separate the “buyouts” into three timelines; Pre-Buyout era, Buyout era and Post-Buyout era.
Pre-Buyout era:
Up until the latter part of 2008 Estes/Cox maintained many commercial accounts, including ours, Matt’s and various other resellers. We all bought small batches of merchandise as far as Estes knew what they even had in stock.
Also, in years previous, pallets, barrels and cases of merchandise left their warehouses, either destined for scrapping, via employees (mostly R & D items, factory rejects or overages) or sold to various entities, such as Combatalbert, etc.
Tom’s stuff would have been from this era.
During 2008 I “discovered” more and more batches of product at Cox (mainly by having staff run dummy SKU’s a few times a week) and bought them up one by one as funding became available. I was trying to keep this quiet, real quiet. However, Matt’s a smart cookie and he also had it figured out at some point lol and was buying product. I threw as much money as I could at the project knowing that, if I didn’t, somebody would. That is how I ended up with the majority of items.
It is my understanding that during that time Reggie also bought some product. Dan had not bought from Estes in decades and was not buying during this time.
Reggie obtained aprx. 3,000 Die Cast Surestart engines. Matt also bought some engines but it is not my place to divulge how many he purchased.
Another USA buyer purchased 8,000 Surestart engines and another few thousand were bought in small batches by a multitude of buyers, together with small quantities of other items.
Towards the end of 2008 all that Cox had left in their official inventory was stuff for electric flight and some legacy product (11 items to be exact). The legacy product consisted of 3 types of Surestart engines, 3 types of propellers, rubber spinners, hubs, studs and starter springs.
This is where the “Buyout-era” comes in.
At the end of 2008 I partnered up with Dan Sitter and we bought the remaining engines, propellers, spinner, hubs, studs and springs. Dan ended up with just over 20,000 Surestart engines, the vast majority being the Die Cast version. In total, we ourselves ended up with over 35,000 engines.
With Sitter, this was effectively the last buyout as I had bought everything else previously. For all intents and purposes Estes was cleaned out of legacy product.
In hindsight I should have bought it all myself in 2008 but, back then, I did not see it being the super business it is today. Oh well, hindsight is 50/50 as they say.
This is where the post-Buyout era arrives.
Hounding current and former R & D staff produced another little treasure trove of items; which I proceeded to buy.
I also bought some tooling and some raw materials. I had partnered up with Mecoa, who paid for some of the tooling; which was subsequently shipped there for them to manufacture product for us. This was a fateful and short-lived partnership that brought many regrets from our side. But, life and business goes on …
Then, I bought 6 pallets of the electric stuff proceeding, in turn, to sell 3 pallets of it to Reggie.
Then Tom came into the picture and Matt, Reggie and I bought pretty well all his items.
I also tracked down some former OEM Cox suppliers and bought all their overages.
Furthermore, batches of product show up every now and then either on eBay, elsewhere or by direct offerings. Matt and I (and sometimes Reggie) usually bought it all up and will continue to buy it up. For instance, this is how the Tee Dee carburetors came to be during the summer.
Today, there are only 2 sellers in the world that stock what can be describes as sufficient “depth and quantity”. Those sellers being Matt and us. Sitter has a lot of engines but not much other items in large quantities (besides his extensive collection). Reggie has some bits and pieces (and some real good items in the mix) but, again, not the “candy shop” such as Matt and we have.
It would be safe to say that we hold somewhere around 70% of the world’s commercially available legacy product that is available for sale on an ongoing and reliable fashion. Calculated retail value is over $1.5 mill these days.
And, of course, with over 4,000 drawings at hand, we continually manufacture new items as funding permits.
Does the above help sort out the confusion?
Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca
Warren,
Yes, when one pieces the various posts together it can be confusing.
Let’s separate the “buyouts” into three timelines; Pre-Buyout era, Buyout era and Post-Buyout era.
Pre-Buyout era:
Up until the latter part of 2008 Estes/Cox maintained many commercial accounts, including ours, Matt’s and various other resellers. We all bought small batches of merchandise as far as Estes knew what they even had in stock.
Also, in years previous, pallets, barrels and cases of merchandise left their warehouses, either destined for scrapping, via employees (mostly R & D items, factory rejects or overages) or sold to various entities, such as Combatalbert, etc.
Tom’s stuff would have been from this era.
During 2008 I “discovered” more and more batches of product at Cox (mainly by having staff run dummy SKU’s a few times a week) and bought them up one by one as funding became available. I was trying to keep this quiet, real quiet. However, Matt’s a smart cookie and he also had it figured out at some point lol and was buying product. I threw as much money as I could at the project knowing that, if I didn’t, somebody would. That is how I ended up with the majority of items.
It is my understanding that during that time Reggie also bought some product. Dan had not bought from Estes in decades and was not buying during this time.
Reggie obtained aprx. 3,000 Die Cast Surestart engines. Matt also bought some engines but it is not my place to divulge how many he purchased.
Another USA buyer purchased 8,000 Surestart engines and another few thousand were bought in small batches by a multitude of buyers, together with small quantities of other items.
Towards the end of 2008 all that Cox had left in their official inventory was stuff for electric flight and some legacy product (11 items to be exact). The legacy product consisted of 3 types of Surestart engines, 3 types of propellers, rubber spinners, hubs, studs and starter springs.
This is where the “Buyout-era” comes in.
At the end of 2008 I partnered up with Dan Sitter and we bought the remaining engines, propellers, spinner, hubs, studs and springs. Dan ended up with just over 20,000 Surestart engines, the vast majority being the Die Cast version. In total, we ourselves ended up with over 35,000 engines.
With Sitter, this was effectively the last buyout as I had bought everything else previously. For all intents and purposes Estes was cleaned out of legacy product.
In hindsight I should have bought it all myself in 2008 but, back then, I did not see it being the super business it is today. Oh well, hindsight is 50/50 as they say.
This is where the post-Buyout era arrives.
Hounding current and former R & D staff produced another little treasure trove of items; which I proceeded to buy.
I also bought some tooling and some raw materials. I had partnered up with Mecoa, who paid for some of the tooling; which was subsequently shipped there for them to manufacture product for us. This was a fateful and short-lived partnership that brought many regrets from our side. But, life and business goes on …
Then, I bought 6 pallets of the electric stuff proceeding, in turn, to sell 3 pallets of it to Reggie.
Then Tom came into the picture and Matt, Reggie and I bought pretty well all his items.
I also tracked down some former OEM Cox suppliers and bought all their overages.
Furthermore, batches of product show up every now and then either on eBay, elsewhere or by direct offerings. Matt and I (and sometimes Reggie) usually bought it all up and will continue to buy it up. For instance, this is how the Tee Dee carburetors came to be during the summer.
Today, there are only 2 sellers in the world that stock what can be describes as sufficient “depth and quantity”. Those sellers being Matt and us. Sitter has a lot of engines but not much other items in large quantities (besides his extensive collection). Reggie has some bits and pieces (and some real good items in the mix) but, again, not the “candy shop” such as Matt and we have.
It would be safe to say that we hold somewhere around 70% of the world’s commercially available legacy product that is available for sale on an ongoing and reliable fashion. Calculated retail value is over $1.5 mill these days.
And, of course, with over 4,000 drawings at hand, we continually manufacture new items as funding permits.
Does the above help sort out the confusion?
Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
nitroairplane Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:53 pm
Thanks Bernie that info is AMAZING.
How long do you think until your engines supply dwindles so much that an SS would cost over $30?
How long do you think until your engines supply dwindles so much that an SS would cost over $30?
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
PV Pilot Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:54 pm
That's alot of product. wonder how much stuff Estes destroyed.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
Cox International Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:00 pm
Estes destroyed a lot of stuff. I just missed the 20,000 glow heads and 10,000 spinners for 09 engines... boo hoo...
A basic Surestart we now sell for $22. I hope to have pricing at $25 mid next year, $28 end of 2011 and at least $30 by mid-2013. Target pricing is $39 by 2014 or the Cox 049 engine era will come to an end.
Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca
A basic Surestart we now sell for $22. I hope to have pricing at $25 mid next year, $28 end of 2011 and at least $30 by mid-2013. Target pricing is $39 by 2014 or the Cox 049 engine era will come to an end.
Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
nitroairplane Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:02 pm
PV Pilot wrote:That's alot of product. wonder how much stuff Estes destroyed.
I'm guessing too much I don't like Estes simply because they ruined one of the BEST companies ever.
But then they sold some great guys some great engines.
Oh yeah I remember combatalbert he sold me a tiny tohm .010 powered CL model and he has loads of great cox parts.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
nitroairplane Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:04 pm
Cox International wrote:Estes destroyed a lot of stuff. I just missed the 20,000 glow heads and 10,000 spinners for 09 engines... boo hoo...
A basic Surestart we now sell for $22. I hope to have pricing at $25 mid next year, $28 end of 2011 and at least $30 by mid-2013. Target pricing is $39 by 2014 or the Cox 049 engine era will come to an end.
Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca
And if you were to make them again they would cost about $40 right?
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
Cox International Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:16 pm
And if you were to make them again they would cost about $40 right?
BINGO!
BINGO!
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
nitroairplane Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:57 pm
Cox International wrote:And if you were to make them again they would cost about $40 right?
BINGO!
So by 2014-2015 it may be worth remaking them if there is still demand.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
andrew Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:17 pm
That's a very interesting piece of history. Hearing it from one of the major players lends the credibility we are all looking for -- from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and not rumor or conjecture makes a lot of difference.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for sharing.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
Admin Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:45 pm
Yes, thank you for sharing. like already said, it is much better to hear it straight from you and not just rumors.
Would it have really hurt them to list those glow heads and spinners for scrap price maybe slightly more (so it pays to list them). Maybe even in lots of 100 or more on their site. I'm sure many others would have bought them.
Would it have really hurt them to list those glow heads and spinners for scrap price maybe slightly more (so it pays to list them). Maybe even in lots of 100 or more on their site. I'm sure many others would have bought them.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
RknRusty Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:34 pm
Not only thanks for sharing, but many thanks for being a consummate customer service professional. That means a lot these days when so many marketing representatives act like they don't know where their paychecks come from. It's always a pleasure doing business with you. Matt too, I'm sure. But since I first found Xenalook on ebay a couple of years ago I just haven't gravitated to another supplier. Guess why.
Since Matt is a forum member, I scour his store to make sure I'm not missing anything though. I promise I'll buy something from you, Matt.
Also wondering, Bernie, are you a model hobbyist?
Thanks Bernie, thanks Matt, for helping us keep our hobby alive.
Since Matt is a forum member, I scour his store to make sure I'm not missing anything though. I promise I'll buy something from you, Matt.
Also wondering, Bernie, are you a model hobbyist?
Thanks Bernie, thanks Matt, for helping us keep our hobby alive.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
PV Pilot Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:44 pm
Yes, thanks for the rumor control.
And thanks again to all the folks who had the forward thought to buy up the cox parts before estes junked our dreams completely.
I spread my duckets around, everyone gets a bit just to help keep the machines humming. Dont want to see this minature engine hobby pass by.
And thanks again to all the folks who had the forward thought to buy up the cox parts before estes junked our dreams completely.
I spread my duckets around, everyone gets a bit just to help keep the machines humming. Dont want to see this minature engine hobby pass by.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
warrenlead Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:41 am
Hi Bernie
Thank you for answering my question.
As others have said, it is good to hear the story from the horses mouth. It would make a great magazine article if you wrote it in the 3rd person with a title something like "Cox flies again!" lol.
Info like this from guys like yourself and the excellent info Mudhen has provided also adds weight to this Forum's credibility, and I'm sure Admin/Jacob and the readers appreciate this.
Thanks for taking time out of your busy day to post. 200 emails a day would be a full time job I reckon. I spend hours reading and replying to my 30 or so which aren't all Cox related.
Just one thing about Combatalbert (Darrin Albert), wasn't he the guy who bought Dale Kirn's Kirn Kraft stock? I remember purchasing a beautiful custom built and tuned all red anodized Tee Dee 049 with KK needle assy from Darrin. It was a beautifully presented little motor. Very sadly it was lost back in '06 when my car was stolen. I never even got a chance to take a photo of it.
Cheers
Thank you for answering my question.
As others have said, it is good to hear the story from the horses mouth. It would make a great magazine article if you wrote it in the 3rd person with a title something like "Cox flies again!" lol. Info like this from guys like yourself and the excellent info Mudhen has provided also adds weight to this Forum's credibility, and I'm sure Admin/Jacob and the readers appreciate this.
Thanks for taking time out of your busy day to post. 200 emails a day would be a full time job I reckon. I spend hours reading and replying to my 30 or so which aren't all Cox related.
Just one thing about Combatalbert (Darrin Albert), wasn't he the guy who bought Dale Kirn's Kirn Kraft stock? I remember purchasing a beautiful custom built and tuned all red anodized Tee Dee 049 with KK needle assy from Darrin. It was a beautifully presented little motor. Very sadly it was lost back in '06 when my car was stolen. I never even got a chance to take a photo of it.
Cheers
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
nitroairplane Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:48 am
Did that have a rather square NV assy?
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
warrenlead Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:08 am
nitroairplane wrote:Did that have a rather square NV assy?
Yes, and I have a few of them, but this one was RED! The whole engine was red except the cylinder, piston and glow head.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
Cox International Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:37 am
Rusty,
Yes, I have been a modeller since my childhood but presently fly mostly .40 and upwards. Still have that huge WACO with that 4-Stroke Saito 120 that I have not yet had the guts to get airborne. Nice decoration, however
The next few weeks I will have to reduce my blog time as we are completely revamping our eBay store as well as replacing all the pictures in our stores.
We are also expanding our office space, possibly needing to hire another person as well as having to expand our server infrastructure. And there are only 24 hrs in a day
Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca
Yes, I have been a modeller since my childhood but presently fly mostly .40 and upwards. Still have that huge WACO with that 4-Stroke Saito 120 that I have not yet had the guts to get airborne. Nice decoration, however
The next few weeks I will have to reduce my blog time as we are completely revamping our eBay store as well as replacing all the pictures in our stores.
We are also expanding our office space, possibly needing to hire another person as well as having to expand our server infrastructure. And there are only 24 hrs in a day
Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
PV Pilot Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:24 pm
Cox International wrote:The next few weeks I will have to reduce my blog time as we are completely revamping our eBay store as well as replacing all the pictures in our stores.
We are also expanding our office space, possibly needing to hire another person as well as having to expand our server infrastructure. And there are only 24 hrs in a day
Bernie
www.coxinternational.ca
Up and out is always good news.
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Re: A brief Cox product buyout history
nitroairplane Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:55 pm
warrenlead wrote:nitroairplane wrote:Did that have a rather square NV assy?
Yes, and I have a few of them, but this one was RED! The whole engine was red except the cylinder, piston and glow head.
thought so.
Bernie updates are always appreciated.
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