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Post  944_Jim on Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:27 am

Looks good! Will you add outboard tip weight? I use shotgun pellets.mixed with thinned epoxy. The thinned epoxy flows wherever it is poured and locks the pellets in. I'll try to remember to get you a picture of how I did mine. Basically, I cut a hole in the covering and plopped the mix in place. Once hardened I fixed the hole with a patch.
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Post  layback209 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:00 am

Hey Jim, I was thinking of gluing a copper penny to the inside of the last outboard rib at the c.g. location.

Any one know what the sugested cg location is on this model? My plans are blurred but to scale and I cant find it anywhere.... I was thinking 1" back from the leading edge??? Is there an simple way to calculate it.

Here it is all dry fitted up. Next tip wieght and covering. Probably going to go with the Norvel. Lil satan build, cant decide on a power plant - Page 3 20190611
Lil satan build, cant decide on a power plant - Page 3 20190610
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Post  Cribbs74 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:10 am

You need 1/4oz for tip weight roughly 3 post 1982 pennies.
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Post  layback209 on Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:06 am

Thanks Cribbs,

A friend of mine had the original plans and looked up the c.g. for me. It called for 7/8" back from the LE
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Post  944_Jim on Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:34 am

That's a solid tank install! Good for you. I look forward to flight videos.

Sorry...I meant to add these a while back. The P-40 wingtip has a small block of balsa carved out with a hole accessible by cutting open the tissue. The last rib is the inboard wall. The wingtips provides the cavity floor. Once the epoxy/lead shot pellets were dribbled in the cavity, the tissue was applied to close the hole. In this instance, the weight is topside, so the wing was left level for the mix to self-level until set.

I tried to find how I did the Lil Satan...it appears another box was knocked together and the mix poured in (classic case of CRS disease-doh!). The model was hung by the leadouts until the mix set. Then the wing was papered.

Lil satan build, cant decide on a power plant - Page 3 Img_2137
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Post  getback on Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:20 am

Looking Good Layback209 !! I do like the tank install and the way you put balsa over the lead out tubes , i have not liked them exposed for covering the way i have been doing them Rolling Eyes Jim thats pretty cool But how do you gage how much to use for the right amount of weight your wanting ?
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Post  944_Jim on Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:34 am

I weigh out about 75% of the lead pellets required for "Desired Ballast."
I mix up my slow set epoxy at about 75% of the "Desired Ballast." The epoxy gets mixed before adding the pellets. A little epoxy thinner helps mix everything faster...but not.much thinner.

The two get mixed in a small mixing cup and weighed for "Total Cup Weight."
Then the cup gets weighed as I load the ballast and keep checking the cup weight until it weighs "Total Cup Weight" minus "Desired Ballast."

This method was developed while working with my boys on their Pinewood Derby cars. We needed a way that allowed for easy removal or addition of ballast once we learned our home scale didn't measure the same as the contest scale. All it takes to remove weight is scraping with a sharp razor or flat tip screwdriver..all it takes to add weight is some 5-minute epoxy and a few pellets.

The pellet/epoxy mix sticks hard! This was evident when I hard-crashed the Scientific P-40 back in the winter/spring, and when I plowed my Lil Satan Clone in several times a few years back.
Hope this helps!
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Post  layback209 on Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:12 pm

Here is where I'm at with it. Decided to go with a new to me norvel. CG looks pretty close probably go a bit forward once I add the hardware.

Just getting the fiddly stuff done with the beam mount now. Lil satan build, cant decide on a power plant - Page 3 20190612
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Post  Marleysky on Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:28 pm

Wheee Uu Whee !!
You gonna be spinning like a top with that Norvel on the nose!!   As a youngster many years ago, a black widow on a lil satin was a handful! Can’t wait to watch your video.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:18 pm

Good choice, you’ll like it.
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Post  akjgardner on Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:32 pm

Is it a .049 or .061 ? If it’s the .061 you better hang on for dear life , please take a video Very Happy
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Post  andrew on Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:48 pm

Your fuel pickup in the tank is located pretty far to the right of the centerline. You'll want to use a small ID fuel tubing to reduce the mass of fuel that will need to be pulled into the carb to avoid fuel starvation. Secondly, as your fuel level goes down, the distance fuel must be drawn will increase. The Norvel has pressure (actually pretty good), so fuel draw may not be a problem, but if you do experience lean runs, you may need to be prepared to move your tank closer to the centerline.
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Post  layback209 on Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:58 pm

Thanks, Yuppers I think it's going to rip pretty good. Hopefully not straight into the ground on the maiden flight. It's a used 0.061 ama I picked up a while back. It also has the r/c carb, I'm not to fussed about that. See if I can catch a video of it. Plan to start with a 6x3 on the rich end and go from there.

I kinda built myself into a corner with the fuel pick location. Hopefully it ends up being functional. If I build another one I think I would increase the wing area at least 25%. The span sure is tiny.
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Post  66 Malibu on Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:01 pm

WOW,
Can you say "Tiger by the Tail" with a Norvel .061. It doesn't matter, at that point, if it is a Big Mig or an AME, with such a small airframe !!
You're a better man than me !!!
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Post  aspeed on Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:05 pm

42' lines should be fine. If you get dizzy, do an 8 every other lap.
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Post  944_Jim on Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:12 pm

Well, if it leans out on you then use the muffler tap to pressurize..plug the bottom, and hook your top/uniflow to the muffler.
Good job!
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Post  layback209 on Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:59 pm

Thanks for the line length suggestion I have been thinking about that for a bit. I was thinking 35' more for dealing with the wind we get here. It is rare to have 1/2a weather. But 42' that would be super could make bigger maneuvers. Probably only fill the tank halfway so I can get the feel of it and not get stuck spinning if something needs a tweak that impacts stunting.

I dont have much experience with norvels, but the other one I have on my brodak zero runs amazing on muffler pressure. Was planning to start there, I decided to do the uniflow bend for flexibility. Thanks for reminding me, need to plug the bottom vent. I probably would forget when the excitement starts.

Going to need my reflexes and mind sharp for this one lol.
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Post  944_Jim on Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:33 pm

That P-40 I showed above flies regularly in 38' lines. It has an AP .061 with Jan Haluzko venturi and muffler pressure. Your Lil Satan has more wing area, but should do fine similarly configured.
We want vids! Post in YouTube and share the link here please!
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Post  944_Jim on Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:41 am

layback209 wrote: my brodak zero runs amazing... 

May I trouble you to start a Brodak Zero thread? I just bought this kit from a guy on RCG. The price was too good.

I'd love to see pics, read specs. How does it fly? What size engine? What size prop? Line length? Big Mig or AME?

Will it loop?
Or did I just pick up another roundie-roundie?

I'm trying to get away from camo paint jobs, so I think I'll go with the lighter, non-camo period correct colors (or a close approximation).

Thanks in advance.
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Post  Ken Cook on Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:23 am

Jim, all of the Brodak series plane fly quite well. However, seeing that the majority of them are currently laser cut, the wood is very light. In fact too light, it's like punk wood. While the engines love it, I have seen even during the building stage mishaps that can break items such as the fuse. Check your wood prior to building.  There's nothing you can do to strengthen it. Yes, you can silkspan it blah blah, but it's not strong enough. The best thing is to find a medium density piece of balsa and replace it.

      I have been involved with several discussions in regards to Norvel engines on the forum. I fly stunt and combat with these engines. To answer your question in regards to AME vs Big Mig, one has to understand the idiosyncrasies between the two. First understand which is which. Remove plug and count the holes in the cylinder liner, Big Mig has 5, AME has 3. While Big Mig is considered the lower powered version, just as much power can be extracted from it vs the AME. The AME has a slightly larger venturi, it also doesn't fair well running on draw from a tank. It runs exceptionally well using a bladder and fairly well using muffler pressure.

             I personally would avoid muffler pressure as for one, it's not needed and two it can really send a engine into orbit if the pressure line comes off during the run. Therefore rule of thumb and Andrew mentioned this above, do whatever it takes to align the tank behind the engine or moving it closer to centerline of plane. Even a tank mounted outboard on a profile can be problematic and sinking the tank into the fuse can offer a tremendous amount of reward. This doesn't mean it's a necessity, it just means that you have a option to provide a better run if maneuvering is your thing. I have plenty of tanked profiles that work just fine, it can come down to just different shapes and styles. A longer skinnier tank is preferred when placed on a profile. A wedge that projects 1 1/4" or more is not preferred, the engine has to work harder to draw it from the tank. This is where a AME can really suffer due to it's larger venturi.

When you do this, you cut a large hole in the fuse so use 1/64" ply as a doubler to offer strength back to the fuse. I believe all Brodak 1/2A's are currently beam mount. John provides doublers for these kits that aren't sufficient enough. They stop short of the leading edge and they both end in the same spot. The entire nose now breaks off right behind where the doublers stop, I have seen this a dozen times. You should always extend the doublers to the high point of the wing.  

          Back to the engine, Norvel's are not Cox engines. They don't like 6x3 props be it .049 or .061. It will swing it, but it's a lot of load due to the design of most 6x3's having a moderately wider blade. APC 5.5x2.5, 5.5x2, 5x3, 4.6x3 , 5.7x3, 6x2 are all good choices for the Norvel. These are thinner bladed propellers which allow the engine to maintain higher rpm's which is what you need. I have never found the 6x2 to work well as I find it just beats air. I know plenty that used that prop exclusively on the AP.061's.

            You don't need high nitro using a Norvel, a Big Mig will run just fine on 10% fuel. The AME however with it's larger porting will require higher nitro because the larger porting cools off the plug. I no longer use the AME because of the several I have had, the same problem occurs in that as the engine wears, the staking of the wrist pin is compromised. On landing, the wrist pins slide out and get jammed into the forward port of the cylinder. Once the liner is scored, it's game over. The Big Mig doesn't have port holes that align with the wrist pin so it's a no brainer on choice.  

           Just prior to Brodak's 1/2A stunt event, I was receiving numerous e-mails from many on how much fuel, what fuel, etc. Someone mentioned that it's a must to run bladder like the combat guys. That's totally untrue nor needed. The most important part of a successful tank run is it's design and placement not to mention clean and LEAK free. While I've posted this before, here's my son this past Memorial Day with my buddy Larry ( Larry in blue), flying both Norvel .061's. Larry is using a AME and my Baby Flite Streak is using a Big Mig both using a Cox rubber ducky 5x3 cut down to 4". If you lend your ear to the video you can see no matter where the Streak is, there's no hesitation in the engine throughout the flight in terms of stumbling for fuel. Larry is running bladder and I'm running suction. No muffler, no pressure , no uniflow. Just standard vent. https://www.facebook.com/PhillyFliersCL/videos/375374572998324/
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Post  944_Jim on Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:43 am

Good morning Ken,

Layback, sorry to thread-jack!

Anyway, all good points re: Norvels. We've discussed these before, and I voraciously  took notes! I still need to build up a prop collection. All I have is Cox 5x3, and MA 6x3 right now.

With regards to the Brodak kit, mine is an earlier die-cut kit. I wanted to see Layback's build since all I see is the box art, and the flat woodstock in my hands. The funny thing is I have been trying to move away from slabbies. The price was just too good!

My question regarding which engine is so I can understand why the model flies like it does. I have several beam-mount engines to play with. So it is just a matter of his perspective, or point of reference. At this point I have a Medallion .049, both Norvel types, and AP .061 engines. I'm looking forward to switching/testing each one on a given plane. And now that I have an AME, this is really itching my brain!

Your description of tank mounting is interesting, and has always intrigued me. I see the "cut-into-fuselage" method was common on British kits, like the Mercury models. I may try this with this kit.
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Post  andrew on Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:55 am

WRT pressure, unlike Ken, I run pressure all the time. However, my usage is in RC planes running Fuji film can tanks --- consequently, the length of time the nose may be pointed upwards is considerably longer than in C/L and pressure seems to keep the runs more consistent.

I want to re-emphasize Ken's comments on prop size. The Norvels were designed to turn up and over-propping can really hinder their performance. Even a MA 6x3 cut back to a 5x3 can be too much due to the paddle style blades on the MA's. Keep 'em happy and wind it out.
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Post  layback209 on Thu Jul 04, 2019 4:33 pm

Hi Ken and Andrew. Thanks for the info I learned a lot looking through it.

I'm sort of the only guy in my area that flys the 1/2a stuff. Been a trial and error exercise. I like it.

Hi Jim here is the zero, it was a die cut kit, with some lazer parts. if your on Facebook a have a build album on the Alberta Controlline Flying group. I reinforced the fuse with doublers and ran them back behind the cg a bit. Used a big mig. I also extended the center sheeting all the way to the ribs. Just used ultrakote for covering. To echo Ken, I was suprised how light the balsa was.

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Post  ticomareado on Thu Jul 04, 2019 6:13 pm

I'd go with a Medallion with a two port SPI cylinder. One port if you want to slow down.
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Post  Ken Cook on Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:43 am

I have the Brodak .40 size version. Now that I see this model in 1/2A, I really like it. A nice job you did on that Layback, I'm sure it flies well. Ken
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