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Post  Cribbs74 on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:20 pm

Well,

I asked for this,so I guess I had better post something. Actually I had this in mind when I brought the topic up yesterday.

Ok, I am away from home and built this up in my hotel room the last couple days. Of course this Guillows Spitfire kit was designed in 1962 as either a rubber powered model or a .010 powered tether line model. The kit says in the instructions that the .010 is out of production and gives details on how to install a .020 instead. I want to use the .020 and plan on using micro servo's for rudder/elevator control. My question is, is this possible? I plan on using the area behind the bulkhead for the battery and run two 3 gram servo's side by side in the area above the wing. the receiver will be mounted in the area directly behind the cockpit and I will run the antenna up the aerial and across to the tail like the real thing.

The wing span is 16.5 inches will this create enough lift for that much weight? Will I have CG problems? I do have a .010, but I only have one, I have two pee wee's so that is why I want to go down that road. Any suggestions welcome be they good or bad. Thanks!

Guillows Spitfire park flyer FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!! Spitfi13


Last edited by cribbs74 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  nitroairplane on Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:09 am

Veery nice but i think 3 gram servos are too small for a .020 i wouldn't use anything smaller than 5 grams.
But yeah it should be possible but are you going to have no ailerons on a Spitfire?
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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:01 am

Nitro,

I really considered ailerons, but the wing construction on this kit doesn't really lend itself to them. 3 channels would be excessive. 2 channels elevator/ aileron would be better. Do you think it will fly like a turd without them? I realize a Spitfire that won't snap roll or bank super hard is kind of sissy, but I am not sure how to do it without major restructuring or reinforcement. Let me ponder on it a bit.

My reasoning for 3g servos was due to weight why would a .020 be to much for 3g? Excuse my ignorance. As long as the throws are quick enough I don't see why it wouldn't work. I admit this is more of a custom build and way out of my realm of experience. As a kid I used to build these as rubber powered. BTW modern CA adhesives are wonderful. 2 days and it's framed out . Not possible when I was younger.
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Post  nitroairplane on Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:13 am

Well the vibrations will probably be too much for the 3 gram ones and they may not have enough torque.
You could do ailerons rather easily just cut away where you want them and then add some sheet to the inner walls of where they will be if that makes sense.Then make the ailerons using the parts you have cut off and some extra balsa.
I know they are not the best instructions ever.
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Post  microflitedude on Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:31 am

cribbs74 wrote:Well,

I asked for this,so I guess I had better post something. Actually I had this in mind when I brought the topic up yesterday.

Ok, I am away from home and built this up in my hotel room the last couple days. Of course this Guillows Spitfire kit was designed in 1962 as either a rubber powered model or a .010 powered tether line model. The kit says in the instructions that the .010 is out of production and gives details on how to install a .020 instead. I want to use the .020 and plan on using micro servo's for rudder/elevator control. My question is, is this possible? I plan on using the area behind the bulkhead for the battery and run two 3 gram servo's side by side in the area above the wing. the receiver will be mounted in the area directly behind the cockpit and I will run the antenna up the aerial and across to the tail like the real thing.

The wing span is 16.5 inches will this create enough lift for that much weight? Will I have CG problems? I do have a .010, but I only have one, I have two pee wee's so that is why I want to go down that road. Any suggestions welcome be they good or bad. Thanks!

Guillows Spitfire park flyer FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!! Spitfi13

You're going to have quite a zippy plane -the .020 was used on Guilows for tether flying, right? If I were you, until you have something else to do with it, I'd use the .010.

My 0.02
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Post  SuperDave on Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:47 am

I'd favor the .010 as well as they are margianally lighter than the .020 and should a have all the power the Spit' would require.

"Beefing" to add the .020 would require adding weight to the airframe.
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Post  shell shock on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:27 am

Hey, its good to see another Guillows park flyer Build Log pop up here. Wow, that is a really nice clean job! I'm building my P-51 on my work bench and it still doesn't look as good as your hotel build. I have to agree with the masses, you are gonna want to use min, 5g servos. I am using the platform in my kit (where the U-line bell crank and such are supposed to go) to mount my servos and batteries. As long as you have not glued on the canopy by now, it should not be hard to integrate at all. I will try and upload pics tonight. It should make a lot more sense then.

Cheers
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Post  Kim on Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:41 am

I'd go with the .010 also. If you beefed the airframe enough for the .020, it would still fly, but you may kill the handling characteristics, and have a "glide bomb" when the engine quits.

Same with the ailerons...the added complexity to do it right would cost you more weight, AND probably weaken the wing since that one-piece trailing edge adds a lot of strength. If the kit had you build the Spit with decent dihedral, the plane should be stable and turn easily with the rudder. I've had plenty of rudder planes that scale rolled great once I found the right balance/control throws.

And remember that the Spitfire is NOT a Pitts Special. Watch any airshow demonstration, and you'll see graceful banks and rolls. Speed and High-G's won the dogfights, and in combat, they turned fast and hard, but about the only time a Spit (or any other heavy WW II Bird) "snap rolled" was when it was coming to the end of it's flying career.

Still, yours should snap just fine since it's a maneuver involving pitch and yaw to begin with. Remember that a Snap-Roll is not a roll at all, but a purposely induced high-speed tip-stall spin.


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Post  nitroairplane on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:08 am

Ok then.
No ailerons on an overpowered spitfire is a real bad combo.
If you powered that with a .010 you might get away with it.
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Post  dankar04 on Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:10 pm

What ever you decide it looks fine. I would modify it for two channel that has alierons. Use one servo to drive both like olden days. Or use more dihedral in wings if you use rudder and elevator only. Nice bones photos.
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Post  SuperDave on Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:11 pm



Ron:

BTW; which Guillow's "Spit" kit is that? 16" or 28" wingspan?

Can't tell from the pix.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:17 pm

Wow ok, lot's of suggestions and questions, I hope I can answer all without leaving anyone out.

Looks like a 50/50 on the ailerons or no ailerons. I have a Sig Hummer that has elevator/aileron and I suppose I could set it upsomething like that, one servo for both ailerons.

Also looks like the .010 won out for the engine choice, Ok, but 90 seconds of flying is pretty short. If I had an external tank (do they even make any smaller than 1oz?) I could go longer but again weight creeps up to around the .020 again.

Why would the frame need to be beefed up/ modified for a .020? it does not show anything extra added in the plans apart from a 1/16" plywood firewall, but that is for both the .020 and the .010.

This is the 16.5 wingspan version, very small for sure. I really enjoyed this comment "about the only time a Spit (or any other heavy WW II Bird) "snap rolled" was when it was coming to the end of it's flying career" very funny, but morbid at the same time.

The dihedral is exactly 1" from center wing to wing tip. That is what the plans called for.

Thanks for the kudo's Shell Shock, not the best environment for a build, very limited tools and space. It helped keep me busy and given the choice of reality TV or this then model building wins..... I would be interested in pics of your P51 build.

I have no problem using the .010 I guess I will have to buy another if I do. Very Happy I certainly don't want a 'Glide Bomb" as mentioned I was hoping to balance things out with battery/servo/receiver.

Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.

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Post  SuperDave on Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:34 pm

Ron:

What's your intention re: covering and camo painting the Spit?

I'm thinking of building the 28" version/ Pee Wee .020 power, three channel w/Futaba S3114 micro servos.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:15 pm

Super Dave,

The best way would be tissue, dope and paint, but seeing as I have very little experience with that I will probably use monocote or something similar. Do they make that stuff without the high gloss? I could camo it using monocote as well, but it wouldn't as good as paint. For strengh reasons monocote would be better plus, it's easy to repair.

When you decide to build the 28" version post a build log as I would like to see how it turns out.
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Post  shell shock on Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:37 pm

I will post pics for yah after i get off work. she looks a tad rough, but i plan on doing alot of clean up with a model this size, i would recomend using a 5 g with flex cable snakes

my .020 ci

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Post  SuperDave on Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:48 pm

Ron:

I'm pretty leary of doping after my recent experience with butyrate and have yet to try synthetic coverings which, I believe ARE avaiable in "dull" finishes.

Any Spit' I attempt is still in the "research" stage where I'm investigating the possibilities and finishing some of my "in process" modeling endeavors.

(Wife thinks I should do that before I start another.) Mad
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Post  Kim on Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:01 pm

One other suggestion...you might consider "plug planking" the fuselage from the cockpit to the firewall. This involves cutting "plugs" of 1/16 and 1/8 soft sheet balsa, coating their edges with cellulose glue, and pushing them in between the stringers and bulkheads. If you use Ambroid or Duco Household cement, it will sand consistently with the wood, AND actually enhance it's scale appearance when finished.

Use the thicker 1/8 plugs on the harder curves, and push them in just enough to get a good gluing service against the frame. Then, carefully sand away the outcropping wood, until it matches the shape of the frame.

This will add very little weight, but will add great strength to the forward fuse. Since that is also the most castor-drenched area, you'll be able to clean it easier with less fear of "rub-cutting" the silkspan along the edges of the stringers.

Lastly, I have a Guillows Fock Wulf 190 kit in the same scale. Perhaps, if my schedule allows, I'll be able to build it and challenge you to a reenactment flight at some point ?!
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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:55 pm

Kim wrote:One other suggestion...you might consider "plug planking" the fuselage from the cockpit to the firewall. This involves cutting "plugs" of 1/16 and 1/8 soft sheet balsa, coating their edges with cellulose glue, and pushing them in between the stringers and bulkheads. If you use Ambroid or Duco Household cement, it will sand consistently with the wood, AND actually enhance it's scale appearance when finished.

Use the thicker 1/8 plugs on the harder curves, and push them in just enough to get a good gluing service against the frame. Then, carefully sand away the outcropping wood, until it matches the shape of the frame.

This will add very little weight, but will add great strength to the forward fuse. Since that is also the most castor-drenched area, you'll be able to clean it easier with less fear of "rub-cutting" the silkspan along the edges of the stringers.

Lastly, I have a Guillows Fock Wulf 190 kit in the same scale. Perhaps, if my schedule allows, I'll be able to build it and challenge you to a reenactment flight at some point ?!

Kim,

I am having a little trouble trying to fully understand your explaination. I am interested though, would you happen to have a picture of the process?
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Post  Kim on Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:16 pm

There may be an illustration somewhere in your Guillows instruction sheet...tho maybe it's only included with larger versions.

Anyway, you're just "filling in" the open spaces between the stringers with soft balsa "Bricks", letting them protrude from the frame just a bit, so that you can sand them flush.

This fills in the forward part of the fuse, and REALLY strengthens it. If you use super light silkspan (which is what I'm gonna try if I can get around to building it) on an open frame up around the engine area, it catches a lot of trauma from the hot castor.

Filling it in gives you a moire resilient surface and strengthens the firewall area.

Long ago, I built the Guillow's Fokker Dr-1 as a U-Controller, and did this all around the frontal area. The plane had an amazingly long life, powered by an anemic Wen Mac that gave it very scale flying characteristics.

It5 does add a little more work, but just thought I'd mention it. I;ll try to follow up once I get home, and find some illustrations.

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Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:05 pm

I think I understand a little better, I thought maybe you only filled the spaces partially. No my kit did not show that in the illustrations. I have just enough scrap left over to do that though. I will post pics once complete. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Post  RknRusty on Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:24 pm

Great thread. It's different from any of my many 1/2A kits. It looks like something I might want to try to do for C/L. I just don't have a tiny engine. I wonder how it would like a Killer Bee. Laughing

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Post  Kim on Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:40 pm

cribbs74 wrote:I think I understand a little better, I thought maybe you only filled the spaces partially. No my kit did not show that in the illustrations. I have just enough scrap left over to do that though. I will post pics once complete. Thanks for the suggestion.

You're welcome ! The thing is though, you need to use "soft" glue like Duco because CA glues cure hard as a rock, and make it difficult to sand the wood sections flush with each other.
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Post  Cribbs74 on Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:07 pm

Ok,

A little progress, but I am about done with the Spit until I get home as I have exhausted all the things I can do without my regular tools. I took Kim's suggestion and "plugged" the forward area. A little more sanding may be required, but I think it turned out ok. Definitely much stronger. Thanks Kim! I also went ahead and made a compartment for the radio gear. Does anyone have suggestions for hinges? Easy hinges might work , but I am thinking the 1/16 balsa spars will not accept them. Anyone know how to do thread hinges? I decided to go with the .010............

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Post  Cribbs74 on Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:09 pm

RknRusty wrote:Great thread. It's different from any of my many 1/2A kits. It looks like something I might want to try to do for C/L. I just don't have a tiny engine. I wonder how it would like a Killer Bee. Laughing

Rusty,

They come in slightly larger versions of mine at 28" wingspan as oposed to the 16.5 " wingspan that I built. Anyway the larger versions are pee wee powered and designed for UC and come with a bellcrank setup and the like. they cost around $35-40. The one I purchased was $11.99 and was perfect for a park flier and also for whiling away my time here at Maxwell AFB.
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Post  Kim on Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:19 pm

The Spit is looking good! I use stitched hinges on just about everything these days. When done right, they easily last the life of the plane.

I totally finish the plane, paint and all. On tiny frames like this, you'll need to add a "doubler" inside the frame where the hinges will go. Use some scotch tape to hold the surfaces where you want them and use a fine-tip marker to mark the dots (a little over 1/16' apart) on both sides of the hinge line. I usually use three to each hinge set.

I like to use a dremel tool with a fine number drill the size of the needle I'm using, and drill the holes. I've got a spool of carpet thread I've used for years to stitch hinges. Start the needle from the bottom, and pull a length of thread out the other side. Run the needle through the hinge line and up through the corresponding hole on the opposite side. You want to do figure 8's like this till you finish this hinge.

Gently draw the thread snug as you go (takes some practice), and when you've got a full set of three figure 8's...CAREFULLY touch a drop of thin CA to each of the holes. It will wick down through the thread and into the balsa, and lock the hinges. Cut the thread off flush and move to the next hinge.

You may have to gently work the hinges loose when you're finished, and they gradually loosen up with use, but keep their strength and won't let the surface slip even after years of flying.

Guillows Spitfire park flyer FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!! Stitch11

Guillows Spitfire park flyer FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!! Stitch12

Hope this might help.


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