Re: Ringmaster Jr. Build.

**Cribbs74** Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:46 pm

It's a good thing this forum doesn't tolerate swearing as I could make a sailor blush if I wrote what I was thinking. How could I be so stupid....

pkrankow Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:21 pm

Believe it or not you can open the wing tip, install the weight, and use a strip of material to seal the careful cut with more dope. After sanding and color the repair will be invisible.

Phil

**Cribbs74** Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:25 pm

Thanks Phil,

The fabric I chose to use is thicker than regular silk or tissue. It can't be sanded. I think maybe I can drill a hole through the wing tip and install the weight.

getback Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:23 am

Yea Ron , looking good ! does that skirt fabric come in colors ? I have never hear of this before and it is very interesting , I as a kid couldn't afford monakote / iron /stuff so tissue and dope was the only way to go , at the price of dope and the coats required plus color seems more expensive now a days What?

I would be careful thinking about drilling that stuff would hate to think it may catch and pull a section away tongue

the cut would be better in my opinion . But it is ur plane and you do as what u think is better ... heck I was putting a couple coats on a frame the outside fan on Hot outside blowing on me and still had to get up from my stool and do a walk drunken

Getback

duke.johnson Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:03 am

Like Phil said. Make your cut, install the weight, brush on dope, lay a patch over the cut, dope ,and fill. Easy.

As for thinning dope. Depending on the dope I mix 50/50 to 60/40 if brushing and 70/30 or so for spraying. You have to eye ball it. You could do a pretty nice job where your at with a Preval paint sprayer from Home Depot on a 15 size plane. They only cost $9.

Keep us updated with pictures.

ian1954 Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:29 am

Why not take your engine. Make a new crankshaft so that the motor can now run clockwise.

Install a clockwise propeller and voila!

Tip weight problem solved!

GallopingGhostler Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:10 am

ian1954 wrote:Why not take your engine. Make a new crankshaft so that the motor can now run clockwise. Install a clockwise propeller and voila! Tip weight problem solved!

You're being facetious, no? lol!

Before the 1960's, some would fly clockwise, taking advantage of the torque. Simplest way to put tip weight might be to remove tip covering, trim away balsa as necessary and embed the lead there. Tired w/ Coffee Read

JPvelo Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:00 pm

Ron,
I'm curious about the shrinking process. I would assume an iron is used after the fabric is adhered to the framework but before full coverage coats of dope are applied?

Thanks,
Jim

**Cribbs74** Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:28 pm

It's works either way.

ian1954 Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:05 pm

GallopingGhostler wrote:
ian1954 wrote:Why not take your engine. Make a new crankshaft so that the motor can now run clockwise. Install a clockwise propeller and voila! Tip weight problem solved!
You're being facetious, no?

Yes.

But this Fox engine would be very difficult to run backwards, if at all! The clue is the offset crankcase and the one sided exhaust outlet.

I find it quite interesting watching this topic in the way that Ron, once again, is a mobile model builder. I am not sure that I could be that organised to pack everything that I needed to craft a plane.

Let alone have the foresight to leave enough luggage room to bring it back!

Ken Cook Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:04 pm

Ron, I always mention this, take one of the stick on weights (1/4 oz.) and smash it. It will become paper thin.You will only need 1 plus a half of another. Slit the wingtip and glue it into the balsa. It's very easy and all you will have is a small slit. For future size .15 builds, shift your fuse to the outboard side 3/8"-1/2" and you won't need tip weight. Many make a big deal out of tip weight and generally end up adding too much. This will hurt performance on the bottom of outside maneuvers and create wobbling and hinging on the top of a inside. If you fly this on Pro Braid or Spiderwire, you will only need 1/4 oz. Ken

JPvelo Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:17 am

Ron,
How's the doped finish coming along? I'm interested in what brand of dope your using and how much it takes to complete the wing.

Jim

ian1954 Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:43 am

Ken Cook wrote: Ron, I always mention this, take one of the stick on weights (1/4 oz.) and smash it. It will become paper thin.You will only need 1 plus a half of another. Slit the wingtip and glue it into the balsa. It's very easy and all you will have is a small slit. For future size .15 builds, shift your fuse to the outboard side 3/8"-1/2" and you won't need tip weight. Many make a big deal out of tip weight and generally end up adding too much. This will hurt performance on the bottom of outside maneuvers and create wobbling and hinging on the top of a inside. If you fly this on Pro Braid or Spiderwire, you will only need 1/4 oz. Ken

Hi Ken,

The tip weight always intrigues me - for this model you propose two options. Probably the best advice is based on experience as per your suggestion.

1. 3/8 oz weight at wing tip
2. Offset wing by 3/8" - 1/2"

Is there a guide to how much tip weight or arriving at one?

All I read is contradicting articles and I end up being confused. There must be a way of getting close without being specific.

I have read advice like - balance the plane so that it will slowly fall to the outboard wing side and then add 1/2 the equivalent of the weight of the lines. Is this a good guide?

Some models are designed with a longer inboard wing and then there is a suggestion that this causes the model to point inwards in flight.

Some have engine offset, rudder offset or both. Some the rudder is only profiled on one side.

I realise that all models have unique characteristics or peculiarities and there is a lot of "trial and error" but is there a safe starting point?

Ken Cook Mon Jul 21, 2014 4:57 pm

Ian, first realize the models that have been suggested. The Ring Jr is quite old. There probably was little to no information from Sterling when they kitted it. The tip weight that was probably suggested was the old Ambroid cement tube that was used to build the model . The better choice is to weigh your pieces and place all the heavy stuff outboard. Tip weight can't be suggested due to many factors but as I mentioned, 3/8 of an oz. is a good starting point for a .15 size model. Rudder offset is going to hurt speed and this plane needs speed. Any engine offset of rudder offset is going to yaw the plane. While engine offset would be my personal choice, It can help in some areas of the maneuver, but it can also penalize you in others. The plane needs to be flown to discover how it reacts. I wouldn't even be concerned with balancing, I would fly the model and go from there.

What does happen if too much is used is that the momentum of more weight than necessary wants to keep moving forward. This can hurt you at the top of the circle in a inside and drop your wing dramatically in a outside maneuver when inverted. I see this frequently and many use more weight to compensate for a wingtip that wants to fly up. If a wing is flying tip high, adding more weight might bring it down to level, this is not my recommendation and it can really cause a plane to fly poorly. My idea is to use just enough and no more. Your only compensating for the line weight. Using Spiderwire can virtually eliminate 1/2 of the suggested tip weight. If I find the need for more, I will tape a nickle or quarter to the tip. If I forgot the weight and the plane is still falling outboard when holding, I will fly the plane and see what happen. Ken

The only time I add more tip weight than necessary is when I build a plane for racing to prevent torque roll. One thing I would also suggest is experimenting.

sdjjadk Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:24 pm

ian1954 wrote:
RknRusty wrote:
ian1954 wrote:A quick build and it looks like neat work. That is the stage I get to and then ............ stall on finishing.

I am looking more and more at profile planes with a view to electrifying but trying to do it neatly so that it doesn't look "lashed" together.

Covering and painting seems to drag on for me.

I will be starting the bigger Ringmaster soon but it will be electrickery.
Ian I'm glad your distaste for profiles is reforming. I agree, their appearance leaves something to be desired but they fill a need to get good quality planes off the table and in the air. And they're such versatile platforms for experimenting and learning.

And yea I get bogged in the details too.
Rusty

I have to say that I am anti-the purely slab sided but I watched some snippets of one Windy was building. Can't find the original video that this was extracted from but

Windy Using Aeropoxy Light: https://youtu.be/HE4p_5kMXeg

There is profile and profile! Surprising what a bit of balsa, plywood, aeropoxy and "profiling a profile" can do. It starts some way into the video.

Aeropoxy is great stuff and very easy to work with. Though mine is in a twin tube cartridge and applied with a "Caulking" type gun and uses tips that mix the epoxy as it dispensed which makes it much easier to get into smaller areas and makes for a cleaner glue joint. Drying time takes a couple of days but it's some strong stuff!
The only downfall is the price. I got one tube of Aeropoxy, an applicator gun and a few different length tips from Bob Violett for around $50.00 when I lived up the street from his shop. Later on I found some Loc-Tite Hysol #9462 which is the exact same thing and is much cheaper at around $10.00 to $13.00 a tube depending on where you buy it. I needed it when I built my Composite-ARF Extra but I found that it's great for other airplanes & heli's and I've even used it for a couple of household repairs.

Shawn

**Cribbs74** Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:11 pm

So.....

USPS broke my plane. Surprise!!!! Rolling Eyes

Broke the wing clean in half. Clapping

Anyway, I repaired it, but the wing wood is now too ugly to cover with a nice clear silk and dope finish.

Since I am giving the plane to my son to fly I figured a shrink covering might make more sense. One day I will have a plane finished in dope.

Ron

Ringmaster Jr. Build. - Page 3 QbsgAv3

sdjjadk Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:17 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:So.....

USPS broke my plane. Surprise!!!! Broke the wing clean in half.

Anyway, I repaired it, but the wing wood is now too ugly to cover with a nice clear silk and dope finish.

Since I am giving the plane to my son to fly I figured a shrink covering might make more sense. One day I will have a plane finished in dope.

Ron

Sorry to hear about the wing. The plane still looks great though!
Is UPS going to pay for the damage?

Shawn

ian1954 Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:45 pm

It certainly is looking nice but I would have liked to have seen it with the traditional finish.

I keep looking at Ringmasters but there seems to be several versions. Kits, plans and sizes.

I like the look of this one because the long nose makes it look ideal for electrickery.

**Cribbs74** Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:50 pm

I didn't insure so I have no recourse.

I did my S-1 in the traditional scheme Smile

I am about to cut down the long nose as it's too nose heavy. Electric will probably exaggerate that issue.

roddie Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:39 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:I didn't insure so I have no recourse.

I did my S-1 in the traditional scheme

I am about to cut down the long nose as it's too nose heavy. Electric will probably exaggerate that issue.

CRAP!! Sorry Ron.. Mad

... Any chance you can "skin-over" the wing's center-sheeting (repair area??) with 1/64" plywood and feather-sand it out? Which panel broke? If it was the outboard one.. this type of repair may kill two birds with one stone.. not having to add as much tip-weight.. and the functional addition of added weight rearward the C of G. ?? Two Cents

**Cribbs74** Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:29 pm

Hey Roddie,

The outboard wing was broken right at the sheeting on the LE and the TE was broken in two places.

I repaired it with epoxy and used triangle gussets for strength. It didn't add a whole lot of weight. What you see in the pictures is after the repair.

batjac Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:47 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Hey Roddie,

The outboard wing was broken right at the sheeting on the LE and the TE was broken in two places.

I repaired it with epoxy and used triangle gussets for strength. It didn't add a whole lot of weight. What you see in the pictures is after the repair.

Hey, at least it was the outboard wing and not the inboard wing. A decent repair should have it flying as good as new, as it isn't handling all the extra forces as the inboard wing does.

The Decent Mark

JPvelo Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:57 pm

Ron,
Do you remember what brand of dope you used for the initial wing covering?

Thanks ,
Jim

**Cribbs74** Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:40 pm

Jim,

I used Brodak Butyrate clear. Apparently Butyrate is fuel
proof on it's own, but not compatible with everything.

You could use Brodak color dope and that will work fine. I was speaking with Sparky (Robert Storick) and he said everything works over Butyrate. So you could always test and see.

Ron

rsv1cox Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:37 am

So glad I found this thread.

A Baby Ringmaster was the first model that my son (now 50) and I built and flew together. He was around nine or ten at the time and this was his learner. Multiple crashes and rebuilds later it was retired to the attic.

Fast forward about 35 years and we got to talking about it. I mailed him what was left and he got it in flying condition and flew it in the cul-de-sac in front of his house.

Ringmaster Jr. Build. - Page 3 RingW-M001_zpsd5a1172c

Ringmaster Jr. Build. - Page 3 Ringmaster001_zps287c3cdd

Nice covering job. I will have to look into that fabric as a covering material for my on-going Nieuport 28 C/L project.

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