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old glue joints

Post  roddie on Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:37 pm

Check out this OLD Jr. Flite Streak wing! Built sometime in the late 60's/early 70's.. probably with Ambroid. I was holding the tip and looking at it's brace layout while it was hanging from the ceiling. To my horror.. affraid the tip came "right-off" in my hand. There is no wood damage whatsoever..



That tip weighs 1.25oz. w/those 4 steel washers.. This wing was given to me.. along with a built.. but as yet; uncovered Junior FS.



Think about that.. when your tempted to fly an old heirloom...
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Re: old glue joints

Post  pkrankow on Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:21 pm

This is a known problem with celluloid based items. Celluloid can go bad and "rot", sometimes in a contagious manner. The best answer is to paint the joints with fresh dope. This will soften and hopefully rejuvenate the old celluloid, and add a fresh layer of, well, glue.

If you have unusual suspect rusting going on you have the bad, potentially contagious, type of rot going on.

The straight razor section on Badger and Blade is where I heard about this first. I have also bought some bad blades that were subject to this funny rusting exactly inside the scales.

Phil
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Re: old glue joints

Post  Cribbs74 on Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:41 pm

Roddie,

That's not unusual as Phil mentioned. It doesn't condemn the model to a life of languish though.

Just go through it, scrape away the old glue where possible. Re-glue it with ambroid or Sigment and Bob's your Uncle.

My Ringmaster is older and was in worse shape than the Streak in your rafters. I have enjoyed it immensely after repairs.



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Re: old glue joints

Post  RknRusty on Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:06 pm

I had to go away and come back waiting for the text editor to load. Anyone else having trouble with CEF tonight?

I received a very very old green box Nobler today. The original builder never finished it, but the fuse, wing, cowling, etc. are covered and painted, hinged and all. All but mounting the engine and flying. Except now its wing covering is rotten and falling to pieces. It came with a couple of K&B Torpedo engines, a 29 and a 35 and a new 35 crankcase. The old modeler is hoping for it to be reworked, so I'll give it a go and take pictures as I proceed. I'm betting I'll run into some serious glue troubles, but I'll update this thread with whatever I dig up.
Hoping this posts
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Re: old glue joints

Post  Cribbs74 on Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:11 pm

Good deal Rusty, when we meet up next I can go over what I have learned with you. If you want that is.

Ron
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Re: old glue joints

Post  RknRusty on Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:35 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Good deal Rusty, when we meet up next I can go over what I have learned with you. If you want that is.

Ron
I sure do. You turned that crappy old Ringmaster into a nice frequent flyer.
Here it is:



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Re: old glue joints

Post  roddie on Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:01 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Roddie,

That's not unusual as Phil mentioned. It doesn't condemn the model to a life of languish though.

Just go through it, scrape away the old glue where possible. Re-glue it with ambroid or Sigment and Bob's your Uncle.

My Ringmaster is older and was in worse shape than the Streak in your rafters. I have enjoyed it immensely after repairs.




Yes Ron, I'm actually fortunate to have had some models given to me.. that were built.. but never covered. Re-gluing the joints could be done fairly easily.. except where there's sheeting.. like over the bellcrank-bay. That's one area that would have to be cut-open to be sure the mount was secure. I could finish 3 or 4 models in a few evenings.. if I worked like you guys do! I have enough iron-on covering.. engines and hardware.. so I can't make excuses.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  Cribbs74 on Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:39 pm

RknRusty wrote:
Cribbs74 wrote:Good deal Rusty, when we meet up next I can go over what I have learned with you. If you want that is.

Ron
I sure do. You turned that crappy old Ringmaster into a nice frequent flyer.
Here it is:



Whoah! You got an oldie there. Looks like a worthy project Rusty!
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Re: old glue joints

Post  roddie on Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:07 pm

Bump..  I love that old Nobler Rusty! That was the first of three that you now have.. correct? I guess it's hard to give an old model any attention.. when you receive another one; Rescue Nobler thread .. that's in flyable condition, the following Summer.. and since then; an ARF kit. Congrats BTW on your recent success with the Twister! A muffler-swap and new plug..  Shocked whodda thunk..

Do you still have that old Nobler? You could make a rudder/fin for it when you start on building the ARF.. (just a thought..) then.. bit by bit, remove the old covering from the wing. Is it silk or silkspan? I'm guessing "silk".. by the way it's curled.. If so; maybe that's a tough assignment.. but I'll bet that the bellcrank connections are in better shape than the "Rescue-Nobler's" were.  Did you ever run the K & B engines that came with it? Is the .35 a "Stallion"?



When I started this thread, I showed how a wingtip had separated from a Jr. Flite-Streak wing that my Uncle had given me.



Guessing it was built in the late 60's early 70's.. but he made some mods to the wing-root.. (check out the lead-out clearance-holes in the rib just inboard of the bellcrank..)  Shocked



He was into "Combat".. around that time.. and I think he told me that he was trying to make a "flying-wing" out of it.. but he "did" hinge a JFS stab./elev. which I "do have".. as well as the rudder/fin..



Whatever.. blah blah.. These things should probably be thrown away.. as "Ken" mentioned recently.. when he "cleaned-house" of all the models that he knew he'd never repair/rebuild. He's a stronger man than I.

Back on topic (I digress).. When it comes to "re-gluing" old glue-joints.. If you can find these "Testors" gluing-tips..



They fit nicely on the nozzle of the Ambroid tubes that I have... and others too..



The extra "inch" of length on the end of a glue-tube really makes it easier to get into tight areas.. and the smaller hole in the tip, provides for a nice "thin-line" and easy to control application. My experience is mostly with "Ambroid". It flows effortlessly through the tip.. and doesn't "string" when pulling away. It's truly like having neat "needle-point" application.. which is really all you should need, to rejuvenate old spar/rib glue-joints in an old "Ambroid-glued" wing.. without adding unnecessary weight. Probably less than an hours-worth of work.. once the covering is removed.

I have several old C/L models that meet this criteria.. and most of them haven't been covered.. but have bellcranks installed with "solid" lead-outs.. old-school style.. except my S1 Ringmaster.. which has it's wing mainly built, but no bellcrank installed yet.

My wife gets BAD migraine headaches that are triggered by solvent-based chemicals.. which is partially why it's hard for me to move ahead with building and finishing. A ventilation system is something I've needed to install in my basement-shop.. but the only semi-accessible outlet, is one std. 15" x 30" window above the fuel oil-tank.. with one of the two panels occupied by the clothes-dryer vent. Maybe I could design a rack for small models.. that fits in the clothes dryer! Laughing
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Re: old glue joints

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Sep 05, 2016 5:10 pm

Fall is approaching. Why not throw a card table outside and work Your planes on a nice dry sunny day?

Ron
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Re: old glue joints

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Sep 05, 2016 6:00 pm

I use carpenters wood glue for probably 80% of my builds. No smell, easy clean up. Ambroid is gone and is a thing of the past. It worked well due to it's sandability. It was more important to me due to it's flexibility. It worked great for freeflight models in the wing area. CA glues wick into the wood, they don't flex and they CAUSE the wood to break just outside of the glue joint due to a stress created by it hardening the wood. Certain epoxy glues have a very bad smell and I've found a few with little to no smell. I personally hate CA. I use it when only necessary and it too has fumes which burn your eyes and or skin if you come in contact with it.

        The K&B Stallion was a cheap engine made to compete with the Mccoy red heads. The wrist pin has no end pads essentially just a radius end. It's not a stunt engine and it runs in a 2 cycle unlike the Mccoy's. They were quite heavy 8.8 ounces compared to the Mccoy weighing 7 ounces. The Stallion  also had a extremely large case on the bottom end. Seeing that most of the available kits of the period were already nose heavy, this engine really put them  over the top. Just like some of the Mccoy's, the screws holding the head down protrude down into the case through the cylinder. These would come loose if not monitored and the jug would blow off which would really foul up things. The wrist pin had a habit of chewing grooves into the sides of the cylinder. A good practice on a new one would be to replace it with a wrist pin with Delrin end pads or really polish and radius the existing one further and use a high castor oil fuel. This engine also has a considerable bark to it. It doesn't like to be muffled and if done, it quickly overheats. The 1/4-28 shaft screws into the crankshaft which has had some not so favorable results when contacting the ground. In the event I had one in your condition, I would seek a profile model like one of the old Midwest Warbirds 48" span and bolt it on. Those planes were real lead sleds and can use the Stallion's authority to assist it through the maneuvers.

           The Goldberg Shoestring and Cosmic Wind were designed around .35 size engines. One major problem with those models is that they came out tail heavy generally resulting in over control and crashing. While it takes a little bit of effort to shoehorn the Stallion into the nose, they work well in these planes by offering the needed nose weight without adding additional. Seeing that the engine's lugs are wider than most, it also puts the blind nuts outside of the stock cowl rather than directly on it.

          Most of the Top Flite kits were generally based around constant chord wings, the trailing edge taper came from stationary flaps. The "Sureform" kits of the 60's utilized all similar ribs which just by looking at them appear to be Flite Streak ribs. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if they were as steel dies cost a lot of $$$$$$. You could easily salvage a rib and tip to copy for a future build if desired. Unfortunately, the Top Flite leading and trailing edges are not available and one would have to make them. They were nicely done typically of C grain and rabbeted out to receive the nose of the ribs. Not required but nice. The ribs could be cut square and dadoes placed on a solid leading edge stock could be substituted or go the route of current kits and use a 3 piece built up leading edge which I personally dislike.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  roddie on Mon Sep 05, 2016 7:21 pm

Ron.. I can't argue your point.

Ken.. thanks for the tips on the K & B Stallion .35 engine. I keep an engine folder with sub-folders by manufacturer.. and copy/paste the text of modelers' experiences into word-docs that I save. I have many of your writings saved of all sorts of modelling info.

Yes.. it's most definitely an early Top-Flite "Jr. Flite-Streak" wing.




I have another JFS-same vintage, built but never covered.. which needs re-gluing of all its' joints.. The wing-construction is identical. One of the plywood nose-doublers; I noticed is delaminating at the front/beam. I'm almost sure it was built using Ambroid cement.



When I had access to a CNC router.. I used a small quarter-round bit to make some balsa L/E stock for small wings. The company made some signs from laminated-balsa "planks" that were 1.75" thick x 24" wide x 96" long. The scrap that was thrown out would make you cry.

Here's one of several pieces of L/E stock that I routed. They're 60" long.



I keep them in a cardboard-tube, along with some other pieces of 4'+ stock.



Replicating "Top-Flite's" Sureform leading-edge.. would take some fancy tooling/jigging!
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Re: old glue joints

Post  RknRusty on Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:22 pm

roddie wrote:Bump..  I love that old Nobler Rusty! That was the first of three that you now have.. correct? I guess it's hard to give an old model any attention.. when you receive another one; Rescue Nobler thread .. that's in flyable condition, the following Summer.. and since then; an ARF kit. Congrats BTW on your recent success with the Twister! A muffler-swap and new plug..  Shocked whodda thunk..

Do you still have that old Nobler? You could make a rudder/fin for it when you start on building the ARF.. (just a thought..) then.. bit by bit, remove the old covering from the wing. Is it silk or silkspan? I'm guessing "silk".. by the way it's curled.. If so; maybe that's a tough assignment.. but I'll bet that the bellcrank connections are in better shape than the "Rescue-Nobler's" were.  Did you ever run the K & B engines that came with it? Is the .35 a "Stallion"?
Yep, still got the Nobler and the engines. I take care to avoid hangar rash, but otherwise, I still just look at them now and then. One of these days, when I've had my fill of CLPA... or maybe I'll send them up to RI, Lol. Never ran the engines, but they're clean and properly looked after.

Thanks for the words on the Twister, I'm happy to know you're reading it. Some of the engine trim results are quite mysterious, but I'll take it.
Rusty

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Re: old glue joints

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:02 pm

Roddie, seeing you have that Flite Streak you should pursue the avenue of at least finishing it. Plywood and Ambroid never really worked well. I bet at this stage using a spatula you could peel them right off. If that's the case, sand the fuse cut new doublers and glue the new ones on. Heck, you could even use that Stallion on there if desired. A bit heavy, but the Streak is a flighty plane and for those not used to it, it can quickly be put into the ground. Re do the bellcrank platform and reglue all the joints. They're terrific planes and built exceptionally well which takes a good bit of abuse. I no longer have my FRIGHT STREAK which was a Flite Streak with a Fox Combat Special on it. It would fly at about 110 all day long on 10% nitro. We kept putting higher and higher nitro in it and every outing usually resulted in the plane or engine breaking. One afternoon the entire bellcrank platform broke loose, another time the wings folded, and yet another time the tail snapped off due to hard maneuvering. The Streak though can be loads of fun with just a Fox .35 stunt. I even have my first one here with a OS FP .20 on it. It weighs a ton but it still flies well for a sport job.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  roddie on Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:14 pm

Yea.. it's "been" on my modeling to-do list. Rusty's got the K & B engines. I was just asking him if the .35 was a Stallion like the one in the pic. My Flite-Streak is the smaller 31" span/230 sq. in. "Jr.".. for .15 to .25 engines.


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Re: old glue joints

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:40 am

You have if memory serves me correct one redhead .19 and one steelfin .15. Either or would work just fine on that plane. It's 75% of the way complete, cover it , paint it. My preference would be the .15. Not a powerhouse, just a good old wind beater that does what's required of it.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  RknRusty on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:57 am

Roddie, I'll look at my K&Bs and see exactly what I have.
Ken, that sounds like a rode-hard Streak you had. I love it when they show their history.

I have only ever seen the skeleton of one Streak, which was my Brodak Baby Streak kit. And it has a one piece vertical grain shear web strip, running the length of each half-span, and slotted in an over & under fashion that makes aligning the ribs easier. Then a cap strip on the top and bottom to form the spar. Do the big Streaks also have this? I see Roddie's does not, which is why I ask. I suppose it would do more damage in a crash or combat incident if it's built into the wing.

Wayne has an ARF Streak that flies really fast with an LA.25. I wonder if the kit is heavier than the ARF.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Sep 06, 2016 4:24 pm

Rusty, the construction is identical to the wing that Roddie depicts from the rafters and his close ups. Over and under spar (Typical) and solid leading edges and trailing edges. Single platform bellcrank which is very poor for this model it was just true to design of the times. Anyone considering running hotter mills beefed up the controls anyhow. I also substitute the balsa spars for spruce.

The ARF, not a very good plane. It's plagued with flaws. It works with the LA .25 and will get you in the air if it doesn't fly across the circle due to the twisted Snyder's pretzel wing that comes like that straight from the box. The best part is that you don't even have to pay for that part. The ARF is lighter. It's also built cheaper, won't last as long, won't even take a mild ground strike, hopefully the nose stays on the front end when your flipping it over. I have seen several of them tear off. The fuse is comprised of cardboard formers with balsa sides and is completely hollow. The doublers are lite ply, the motor mounts are dead soft and crush yielding poor engine runs combined with the hollow fuse. The covering starts to leave the plane by around the 12th to 15th flight again free of charge. This makes replacing with real covering easier. The tank provided is one that I saved just for comedy.

I never used the fuse, I cut my own. I didn't use the elevator due to crappy wood, the stationary flaps were removed and replaced with straight and stronger C-grain. Bellcrank and leadouts were removed and replaced, the piece of crap pushrod wire was also replaced with a piece of wire that will actually do what's asked of it. The entirely too small control horn was substituted for a quality horn. I think they use the horn provided so that if you do manage to get the plane in the air, you wreck it at this stage. The gear wire was replaced and the useless front wheel was also replaced with a thin Perfect Aero wheel. After all that I have a Flite Streak ARF that works. Certainly made the price of that plane worth buying it. But other than that, I highly recommend it.

I have 2 originals and one Brodak waiting to be built. They're a blast with a Fox .35 on them.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  RknRusty on Tue Sep 06, 2016 6:26 pm

Ken, that would be absolutely hilarious lol! ....if it wasn't Thumbs Down No DAMMIT!

And yeah, I witnessed one that would not fly during our meeting at Duck's house in July. Duck's grandson Kyle has been flying Basic flight and I've seen that he can adequately handle a plane. Well, Duck gave him a Streak ARF that weekend. I didn't look, but it sounded like an OS .25. That plane left the ground straight into a loose line wingover and utterly demolished itself upon landing 4 seconds later. Any combination of what you just described could've been responsible for that. I don't know if or who bench trimmed it, but I felt terrible for Kyle. That's Just pathetic.

Does John sell a version of an ARF Streak that is not a Top Flite? I know he sells kits, or did back when I was shopping and bought the Oriental.
Rusty

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Re: old glue joints

Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:33 pm

Aggggh!

The guilt is killing me. I have got to send the thing to you, or tape it up and take it as a carry on for my next trip out your way.

It's really in good shape and just needs a little attention.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  Cribbs74 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:35 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Aggggh!

The guilt is killing me. I have got to send the thing to you, or tape it up and take it as a carry on for my next trip out your way.

It's really in good shape and just needs a little attention.

I am really gun shy after that combat ship fiasco that I didn't even get to evaluate as USPS annihalated it.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  roddie on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:54 pm

Yes Ken.. the Fox .15 is in mint condition. The McCoy .19 red-head needs work.. and is mainly a "nostalgia-piece" that my Dad gave me recently. IIRC.. it "was" mounted in a beautiful Sterling Waco "cabin" (circa early 60's.. when they featured those nice spun-aluminum cowlings.) I "do" have his more recently-built (1990's) Sterling Monocoupe.. with an OS FP .25 in it. That's probably too much engine for me to start with. I think that the JFS's engine-bearers are drilled for an Enya .19-V series 4005 that I have.. I'll have to check and measure. I think I had "planned" to run the Fox .15 on my Jr. Ringmaster.. which is actually RTF (for all intents and purposes).. and run the Enya .19 on the Jr. Flite Streak. It's been a long time since I've worked on either of the models.. but they're the two that I was gearing-up to transition from 1/2A with.

Just an FYI.. there was also a Top-Flite "Super Combat Streak" (Kit #N-5) that my Uncle-Vin built and flew, back in the 60's. I have the original kit-box. He didn't like it.. I don't remember why. It had a built-up fuse design.



I'll have to pay my uncle a visit. He's the one who gave me most all of what he had left from his C/L flying days. He liked Combat-Stunt.. and especially the Combat ships that were being offered back in the 60's-early 70's. His Dad (my Grandfather) and "my" dad; all flew together back in those days.. but my uncle was the dare-devil of the bunch. He'd built a Sig "Winder"; a design of Terry Prather fame.. a Voodoo.. and when my dad built a Veco "Renegade" and powered it with a Veco .35C engine (crankcase-pressure).. my uncle just "had" to have one! (Words of my dad.. this past Saturday). I have the last (only?) Renegade that my uncle built. He gave it to me last Summer. It was powered by a Super-Tiger .35 engine which he did not give me.. Sad  I want to ask him more about his flying days.. and some of the models that I don't know about.. as well as why he never finished the one's he gave to me, so many years ago. Most of the kits/engines that my modeling-family bought, built and flew.. came from a Hobby/Bicycle Shop in downtown Franklin, MA (USA).. under the ownership  of Louis Mucciarone. "Louie" had everything C/L.. as most hobby shops did back then. I vaguely remember times as a child.. going with my dad or uncle to the shop. My parents had an apartment downtown at that time (I was around 4 years old..) just a short walk from the shop. It changed-hands several times over the years.. but finally closed in the mid 70's. The last guy who owned it (David Savadyga).. sold some stuff out of his residence in nearby Wrentham, MA. I bought-out most of his NOS Perfect wedge tanks in multiple sizes, Perfect wheel-sets.. and a Seized Fox .29 Stunt that he handed me in a crumpled-up paper-bag. $5 bought that engine.. which turned out to be only "castor-seized".. but had a broken-off needle. That was around 1992.. and through word-of-mouth (actually a hobbyist named "Bud Cook" from Wrentham, MA).. I was directed to a hobby shop in Central Falls, RI.. (owner Louis Peters.. open only on "Thursdays") who "might have a needle for the engine. I drove there on a Thursday.. and waited. Mr. Peters was aging.. and couldn't drive anymore.. so someone dropped him off at the shop.. and he proceeded to open-up for the day. Mr. Peters was actually quite active/instrumental in the hobby.. and is listed in the AMA charter clubs under Rhode Island "Rhody Aero Guidance Soc.". He had the needle.. and also sold me a set of "Pylon" .004" x 35' solid control-lines on a cardboard spool that day. I still have them-unused of course.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  Ken Cook on Wed Sep 07, 2016 4:41 am

The Combat Streak is a great flying plane. All the qualities of it's flatsided partner. Anytime you have a full bodied plane, you essentially have taken a lot of problems associated with profiles out of the picture. You achieve better engine runs, less tank issues, and generally a lighter plane. I fly a Combat Streak with a Fox Blackhead Combat Special. It's a pretty hot combination. We have a event for baffle type combat engines and this fits the bill. I believe it's popularity was not there due to cost and building. Profiles just build faster and in control line, cost is everything. The nickle pinchers really cringe when you suggest something cost $1 more. No one will buy when it's offered but they sure will complain when it's gone.

Seeing that your Streak is pretty close to being complete Roddie, it certainly makes for a good candidate to finish. Keep it simple and iron on covering works great. I wouldn't dope the model, just paint it and covering. Just pay careful attention to the existing bellcrank platform in there and be certain the ply is intact and not delaminating. Offer it some more glue and bolt the engine on.
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Re: old glue joints

Post  rsv1cox on Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:21 am

I'm enjoying this thread.  There is something about seeing old models hanging from the rafters that pushes my nostalgia button.  Even the battered glue tubes have the same effect.

A recent episode of "American Pickers" had the boys going through an old automobile warehouse that had great looking models hanging from the ceilings that they just ignored.  Look up dummies I shouted to no avail.  Would have loved to see a couple up close.  

I know that my first Nieuport 28 was built using Ambroid, but taking Ken's suggestion of awhile back my last four models have been repaired/built using mostly Titebond wood glue with epoxy where necessary.  

Bob
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Re: old glue joints

Post  gcb on Thu Sep 08, 2016 6:30 am

roddie wrote:Yea.. it's "been" on my modeling to-do list. Rusty's got the K & B engines. I was just asking him if the .35 was a Stallion like the one in the pic. My Flite-Streak is the smaller 31" span/230 sq. in. "Jr.".. for .15 to .25 engines.  
 
Roddie,

From the pic of your Stallion .35 you need to realign the head so the baffle lines up with the baffle on the piston.

Rusty's K&B's appear to be "green-heads" from the early/mid fifties. When K&B came out with the green heads they also switched from a 3-bolt backplate to a 4-bolt backplate...except the .29 which retained the 3-bolt backplate until the ample stock of crankcases was used up. Then the .29 was also fitted with the 4-bolt backplate.

You can tell the green-heads from the Stallion by the thrust washer and the exhaust position, assuming the engine is positioned so you can't see STALLION on the crankcase.

I too like the Flite Streak Jr. and have built several. My first one was powered by a MAX-I .15. The largest engine I had in one was the (then new) FROG .21 diesel. The engine was WAY too powerful and WAY too heavy but it flew...round and round...fast! :-)

George
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Re: old glue joints

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