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Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

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Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:49 pm

Just got this rather crispy Enya 09-II with the early style Enya carburetor and when I removed the glow plug I was surprised to find this idle bar, a new style to me.  Looks like a thin strip of foil not the robust idle bars seen on most carburetor equipped engines.  

Any idea on who made it, the heat range and era produced?  It may be original to the engine but it's not Enya marked.





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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  Mark Boesen on Fri Nov 25, 2016 11:08 pm

Johnson Engines (Dynamic Models)
http://modelenginenews.org/people/dynamic.html
60's
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:46 am

Mark Boesen wrote:Johnson Engines (Dynamic Models)
http://modelenginenews.org/people/dynamic.html
60's

Thanks Mark, interesting reading.  Holland Engineering, P-38, the Johnsons, seems like there were more of them than just Kelly working at Lockheed.  But little on glow plugs other than "four different types" by Dynamic models but no pictures or descriptions offered.  

I can rule out Enya as Bob Allan the Enya guy, states that Enya never made an idle bar plug.  But the original owner evidently thought one necessary as it is an albeit primitive carburetor engine with a variable speed range.

So your thoughts are that it is a Dynamic plug put out in the 1960's which does coincide with the .09II's production dates.  

Bob


Last edited by rsv1cox on Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  Oldenginerod on Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:35 am

Interestingly, it seems that Enya engines were never sold with a plug included, so many may have opted to purchase whatever was available or cheaper when they first got their Enyas. Actually, I purchased a very sorry looking Enya .09-IV a few years ago and it has an idle bar plug installed. Strange that it was fitted as Enya obviously thought it wasn't necessary.

As for your glow plug Bob, I haven't been able to pin it down exactly, but it does look very similar to the old style K&B plugs sold by MECOA.
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  gcb on Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:05 am

My guess is that the strip was welded to a standard plug. Perhaps the owner wanted to use up some standard plugs. It would also appear that the plug may be too long and the strip has been hitting against the piston baffle. I would pull the head and see if the plug extends down into the combustion chamber.

George
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:49 pm

gcb wrote:My guess is that the strip was welded to a standard plug. Perhaps the owner wanted to use up some standard plugs. It would also appear that the plug may be too long and the strip has been hitting against the piston baffle. I would pull the head and see if the plug extends down into the combustion chamber.

George

From Bob Allan's Enya "Compendium."

Glow Plugs
The earliest Enya glow plugs that we know of, appeared around the early to mid 1950’s, and were
named “CAM-GLO”. These were the familiar Enya shape, and each individual plug came in a
small box stating that – “A good engine requires & deserves a good glow plug”. It is not
known if these plugs were made by, or for the Enya Company but also written on the plug box
was “An “Enya” product “ and underneath, “The Camco Corporation”. These plugs were 2 volt
maximum, as were the following (now simply branded as “The ENYA” ) No. 1 and 2.
These later plugs were manufactured by Enya in at least six different types, the very early No. 1 &
2 plugs had a nickel-chromium element (ni-chrome) for use with 2 volt wet cells, and identified by
a black body with gold top. These plugs were sold in boxes of 10, the boxes being either
red/white or red/yellow. The later ones (No.3, 4, 5 & 6) were all sold individually, and were 1.5 volt
platinum alloy (platinum-rhodium) with No 3 the hottest, No 6 the coldest. Interestingly, Enya
never made a glow plug with an idle bar, nor did they recommend the use of these in their R/C
engines. The early Enya plugs (shiny plated) had taller tightening flats than the latter day ones.
Goro Enya incidentally, was in charge of the platinum & glow plug department, the high cost of
platinum being reflected in how much was used in each plug size ie. No 3 the cheapest, No 6 the
most expensive.
Also, just a word of caution here regarding Enya (and OS! ) glow plugs. Neither brand is strictly a
“long” or “short” reach (7/32 in. & 5/32 in. respectively) but an in-between 3/16 in. size. This
means that one has to be careful when fitting long plugs (eg. FOX R/C type) to an Enya, as it is
possible in some models for the piston to strike the end of the plug, obviously with dire results!
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:16 pm

Oldenginerod wrote:Interestingly, it seems that Enya engines were never sold with a plug included, so many may have opted to purchase whatever was available or cheaper when they first got their Enyas.  Actually, I purchased a very sorry looking Enya .09-IV a few years ago and it has an idle bar plug installed.  Strange that it was fitted as Enya obviously thought it wasn't necessary.

As for your glow plug Bob, I haven't been able to pin it down exactly, but it does look very similar to the old style K&B plugs sold by MECOA.

I couldn't find the old style on their website Rod, but I did go through all of the glow plugs offered on ebay vintage and otherwise and couldn't find a match. Same on the net.

Bob
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  Mark Boesen on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:38 pm

Bob, the plug is a Johnson plug, made by Dynamic Models, early 60's
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Nov 27, 2016 7:44 am

Mark Boesen wrote:Bob, the plug is a Johnson plug, made by Dynamic Models, early 60's

Thanks Mark, Found one. Don't want it but gotta have it. Made a substantial bid.



The glow plug looks the same, can't wait to see if it has an idle bar.

Bob
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:09 pm

Found the R/C version too Mark.





Lot's of foam packing rash damage. Interesting engine. One at least should have the thin idle bar plug.

Bob
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  Mark Boesen on Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:52 am

That is a cool looking engine!
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Tue Nov 29, 2016 10:02 am

Mark Boesen wrote:That is a cool looking engine!

Yes, That exhaust manifold/muffler/restrictor affair has me stumped, is it partially open underneath or does it all escape through that little hole.  Time will tell.  Curiosity surrounding that glow plug got the best of me.  There were serious bidders on the C/L.  The RC version was cheaper at BIN.







Bob
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  gcb on Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:17 pm

[quote="rsv1cox"]
From Bob Allan's Enya "Compendium."

... These plugs were 2 volt maximum, as were the following (now simply branded as “The ENYA” ) No. 1 and 2. These later plugs were manufactured by Enya in at least six different types, the very early No. 1 & 2 plugs had a nickel-chromium element (ni-chrome) for use with 2 volt wet cells, and identified by a black body with gold top. These plugs were sold in boxes of 10, the boxes being either red/white or red/yellow. The later ones (No.3, 4, 5 & 6) were all sold individually, and were 1.5 volt platinum alloy (platinum-rhodium) with No 3 the hottest, No 6 the coldest...


Does ni-chrome react with the fuel to cause a catalytic reaction similar to the alcohol reacting with platinum? Perhaps They were plated with a platinum alloy? Another possibility would be the heat of combustion keeping the element hot.

I have no experience with ni-chrome plugs. During the fifties I used O&R, OK or Champion plugs. When Champion stopped making plugs, I started looking around more.

George
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  Mark Boesen on Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:10 pm

i'm not 100% but i think ni-chrome is the type of wire filament, its the rare metal that has a catalytic reaction to the alcohol, that along with the heat of combustion keeps the filament glowing.

http://modelenginenews.org/people/arden.html
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:06 am

Mark Boesen wrote:i'm not 100% but i think ni-chrome is the type of wire filament, its the rare metal that has a catalytic reaction to the alcohol, that along with the heat of combustion keeps the filament glowing.

http://modelenginenews.org/people/arden.html

A lot of history and information packed into that single page. I saved it. Thanks for posting.

Bob
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:46 pm

I finally got around to pulling the glow plugs on these Johnson Dynamic Model "Bulldogs", one TV the other CL.  Not surprisingly the TV version has the thin idle bar, the control line version doesn't.

Rough engines. No where near the fit or finish of most other manufactures. I still have no idea how that R/C version in this configuration expels exhaust gases as the addition has no opening that I can see.  Must be there though.  The hole you see is for the mounting screw and the instructions give no clue.  







Beside the venturis they are identical except the hole for the RC mount screw is filled in on the C/L version.  All in all quite a turn-off.  Guess I will sit on them for awhile then turn them loose and let someone else figure them out.

Bob

Edit add, OK got it. The restrictor exhaust arm controls a barrel with a hole in it, rotates..... Knew it, forgot it. Sad





Still don't like it. Smile
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  roddie on Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:55 pm

"Paint & Chrome.. won't get ya' home"..  Laughing (my mechanic/buddy's words..) Maybe not the most attractive casting-finish.. but very interesting engines Bob. Are they .09's? I'm guessing that they have bushed crankshafts.. but there's a lot of "meat" to the nose of the casting that could support a ball-bearing.  Huh... Also; the cylinder-heads have no cooling-fins..  Huh...  Huh...  A short web-query tells me that the engines were produced through 1963/4.. with influence from Bob Holland.

This is a great read..  

http://www.modelenginenews.org/people/dynamic.html

Here's a 2014 RCG "for sale" thread for a Bulldog .09 RC;

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?2068676-Dynamic-Models-Johnson-09-Bulldog-R-C-engine-NIB

I hope I've influenced you into holding-onto those two engines. I'd never heard of them actually.. but I'm not by any means a model-engine historian. I realize that you enjoy displaying your engines Bob.. and these aren't the most handsome.. but it's what's "inside" that really counts. Why not set up for bench-running them in that new shed? I like the beam/radial-mounting options. Not sure how well radial-mounting would work in a model-airplane.. I guess it would depend on how smoothly the engine runs.. and the integrity of the firewall. I'll bet that you have a propeller to fit.. and some adequate fuel. You must be curious of the throttle-action on the RC-variant. I would be.
If you haven't read the American Modeler article attached.. you should. These engines had Lockheed-engineering influences. Variable-pitch propellers were developed for the RC engine.. with reverse-pitch capability, to aid in a low-idle landing approach. Cool stuff.
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:13 am

"Paint & chrome won't get ya home"... Smile  This one never failed me roddie, and up there in Rhode Island too during the early 1970's. Lotsa paint and chrome.  Smile.



Yes,  I had saved the model engine news report but missed the R/C Groups ad, but I have bought a few engines through their classifieds.

They are ugly little things and yes .09's, but I will probably keep them.  I haven't sold an engine since the ebay debacle of 20 or so years ago when I sold virtually all my model engines, but I have given away a few.  

Run them?  I don't know.  They are NIB and somewhat collectable but it would be interesting to see how the throttle valve engine would run especially with that restrictor exhaust.  If I ever do, I will post it here.

Bob
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  GWILLIEFOX on Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:55 pm

Bob, Dynamic had great things in mind for the Bulldog, but I think they ran out of money and time to finish its design.  They got the engine on the market, but it wasn't anywhere near up to Johnson standards.  Pull the rear cover and head and check the rod and its attachment to the piston to see what I mean.  And that throttle was a nightmare.  They came up with an overcomplicated way to meter the exhaust, castings springs complicated machined parts and custom screws!  And look at the stamped steel arms on the exhaust valve and throttle.  They didn't provide any linkage.  A bend in the wire would be needed to clear the cylinder.  And the throws required by the carb and exhaust don't match up so the user would have to do some figuring to get them to work together.  It seems like they had run out of time when it came to the linkage and someone said, get the thing out the door, the fliers will figure it out.

That carb (Johnson Automix) , though is an excellent piece of engineering.  It was introduced back in 1961 and actually had fuel metering, 6 years before Kavan and Perry.  In the early RC days Supertigre had really bad throttles, but really powerful engines.  The West Coast RCers would fit the Automix to the Tigre and have a great engine.

Why did they run out of time and money? Slot cars and RC cars. They invested really heavy just in time for the slots to die. And their RC car parts were beautiful and sophisticated, but expensive and not all that strong. Strike 3.

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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:09 pm

Great stuff, a maintenance tutorial and a history lession. Smile

I have a theory. Someone removed that TV Bulldog glow plug and put it on a real engine. Smile See picture #1 above.

Bob
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  Mark Boesen on Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:53 pm

rsv1cox wrote:"Paint & chrome won't get ya home"... Smile  This one never failed me roddie, and up there in Rhode Island too during the early 1970's. Lotsa paint and chrome.  Smile.



Yes,  I had saved the model engine news report but missed the R/C Groups ad, but I have bought a few engines through their classifieds.

They are ugly little things and yes .09's, but I will probably keep them.  I haven't sold an engine since the ebay debacle of 20 or so years ago when I sold virtually all my model engines, but I have given away a few.  

Run them?  I don't know.  They are NIB and somewhat collectable but it would be interesting to see how the throttle valve engine would run especially with that restrictor exhaust.  If I ever do, I will post it here.

Bob

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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  rsv1cox on Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:52 pm

I managed to find a couple in the same color as the full scale model Mark, along with an orange Baja Bug that you wanted to find under your Christmas tree as a child. Smile I bet that you have several in your extensive collection now.



Bob

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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  Mark Boesen on Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:55 am

lol, i wish, most of the posts are from items i've sold or photos i've down loaded. I used to 'collect' photos for my yahoo group web site of vintage plastic gas powered planes.
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  roddie on Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:05 pm

Mark Boesen wrote:lol, i wish, most of the posts are from items i've sold or photos i've down loaded. I used to 'collect' photos for my yahoo group web site of vintage plastic gas powered planes.

I'm a photo "collector" Mark.. They take up much less space! Laughing I save many photos that you guys post.. (probably at least 75%)

Take Bob's "Buick" for instance; I saved that image in his folder (most of you have a folder in my archives Smile )

The mid-60's Riviera has always been one of my personal favorites. Here's one from my "Cars that you don't see everyday" folder.



In my locale, there's several properties where old cars and trucks "sit".. outside.. waiting for some attention.. someday.. by someone. There's an old Riviera, rusty/faded-blue (1965?) sitting in weeds; fenced-in amongst some boats in a storage facility yard that I drive by frequently. It's been there for years. Imagine if it was Bob's old car??? Shocked
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Re: Glow plug science - Ken, anybody?

Post  Mark Boesen on Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:12 am

....lol, it would of been restored already!
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