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What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:45 am

We think a lot a like brother Rusty.... Shugs plane is exactly what got me thinking to give it a shot.... nothing quite that involved but simple trials just to see if it is a skill I can learn do with poor eyes and shaky hands....
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  Kim on Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:50 am

Go Rusty----enjoying this thread as I await an RSM S-1 !!
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  RknRusty on Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:50 am

I took Monday and most of Tuesday off so as not to tweak my hip before my flying expedition... and because I was out of thin CA too. So Tuesday I got a hobby shopping list together and set out on errands, but the Hobbytown USA didn't answer the phone. Michael's around the corner was a waste of time, No CF, no surprise. But no thin CA, what the hell kind of craft store is this. 5 second Loctite was the thinnest they had. So I got a couple of tubes of chinese CA at the Family Dollar store, hoping it was thin. Not so much. I'd run out Sunday putting the last CA hinge in the elevator. I tried the chinese stuff, but it wouldn't soak in. So I tried the Locktite 5 sec I already had and it was about the same. Screw it, they're in now, hopefully to stay. I want to go back over the wing root too, but It'll wait.

So what's left is: glue stab to fuse, check wing root for gaps, hook up control horns, install LG, tail wheel, power plant & tank... probably something else. Look at the booklet and see if I did it right.
Rusty

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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  Marleysky on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:09 pm

RknRusty wrote:
So what's left is: glue stab to fuse, check wing root for gaps, hook up control horns, install LG, tail wheel, power plant & tank... probably something else. Look at the booklet and see if I did it right.
Rusty

If all else fails........read the instructions!!   Haha!
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  roddie on Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:55 pm




What a character! Laughing Man that's a lot of work.. very sharp though..
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  RknRusty on Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:21 pm

"Character" is right, Roddie. I admire the guy, just a genuine human being and not consumed with his considerable celebrity. His Youtube channel has 65,000 subscribers to his camping and hiking tutorials and adventures, as well as Control Line explanations and flights. He loves to go it alone after a career in front of crowds as a former professional Ringling clown, and now a busy state fair solo act. Also married to a Ringling acrobat with whom they have a talented daughter.

And now with his sudden burst onto the scene as a competitive CL Stunt guy, so many admirers want a piece of him, and he pays respect to whoever wants to talk. He does like people a lot too. I had the pleasure of pitting and flying with him in our mutually first Intermediate contests in October 2015. Now in Minnesota, he grew up in the Charlotte area, so has ties over this way. For more, see my flying discussions report on the 2014 Carolina Criterium at Huntersville... my year of the Osprey, I believe.




https://youtu.be/I9UcTDdvzuI?list=PLahaAdtfX9ZIJYRxo9TS1hNmtMKSvezQn


Here are the documentaries he did on the Criterium  in '14:

https://youtu.be/r7sKI1wW5GE?list=PLahaAdtfX9ZIJYRxo9TS1hNmtMKSvezQn

I think I make a few cameos in the next two.
https://youtu.be/EhhwTnvZFTU?list=PLahaAdtfX9ZIJYRxo9TS1hNmtMKSvezQn

https://youtu.be/ENhNz-vNjBs?list=PLahaAdtfX9ZIJYRxo9TS1hNmtMKSvezQn

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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  fredvon4 on Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:02 pm

Well Poo!
I know I keep Hi-jacking Rusty's P40 thread

But BB suggested a total spray with Luster Kote flat.
I only have a few cans here, and no flat, so went to Tower to find it unavailable, so hit the Top Flite Link to the product to see that ALL Luster Kote is unavailable...

Did we loose yet another pretty good product?
--------------------------------------------------------------
On the other hand, since WX really Sux here, I started on the long list of prep to assemble my Brodak P-40B
That has a new OS LA 40 getting slowly broken it to mount

I have a question on the LG wires.  On mine----the leg that goes into the pre drilled hole is too long by 1/4"
Do I
#1 cut off part of the wire?
OR
#2 drill the hole a little deeper? ---real concern with blowing out through the top of the wing

--------------------------------------------------
Observation after actually taking the time to iron out all the wrinkles.... relative to the TF Nobler ( my only other ARF) the covering job is actually very good

Only real sucky place is the cheesy Flat black Window trim that was placed mis-aligned to start. Still thinking seriously about cutting all that Balsa out of the way and making some sort of structure to hold flat clear plastic, on either side of the profile Fuselage for the cockpit ---with some goofy pilot inside, like Shug did

I am also not too happy that the factory hinge slots are NOT dead nutz centered in the Flaps, Elevators, or Rudder movable surfaces

Question two for BB and Rusty... BUT opinion first.... I think CA in the hinges for the rudder is just plain asking for trouble. and I tend to believe in 0-0-0 alignments with perhaps a strong bis to always have SOME engine offset

How did BB do his rudder? How does Rusty Plan to do his?

I am leaning to carving off the "V" of the Rudder and laying it all up flat with the vertical Stab and gluing it all together before setting on the Fuselage

Thoughts...opinions

Remember I am a sport flier and would never even know how to use rudder trimming...nor need some maneuvers
I also know to add just enough Vert Stab / Rudder offset to ensure that it does NOT Yaw in
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  fredvon4 on Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:32 pm

Just a follow up heads up

I had called Brodak a month ago and was told there is NO replacement part for the ARF P-40 canopy (shown on the Box photo)

BUT just now I looked at ALL their other canopy to see if something was very close, and behold!
SKU# BC-464 for $9.99 is the PART I need
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  Marleysky on Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:45 pm



Better call and verify exact dimensions. Could be 1 1/2 x 3 or 3" x 9" it does look like the right shape for sure!
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  RknRusty on Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:56 pm

fredvon4 wrote:Well Poo!
I know I keep Hi-jacking Rusty's P40 thread

But BB suggested a total spray with Luster Kote flat.
I only have a few cans here, and no flat, so went to Tower to find it unavailable, so hit the Top Flite Link to the product to see that ALL Luster Kote is unavailable...

Did we lose yet another pretty good product?
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have a question on the LG wires.  On mine----the leg that goes into the pre drilled hole is too long by 1/4"
Do I
#1 cut off part of the wire?
OR
#2 drill the hole a little deeper? ---real concern with blowing out through the top of the wing

--------------------------------------------------
Only real sucky place is the cheesy Flat black Window trim that was placed mis-aligned to start.
-----------------------------------------------------
I am also not too happy that the factory hinge slots are NOT dead nutz centered in the Flaps, Elevators, or Rudder movable surfaces

Question two for BB and Rusty... BUT opinion first.... I think CA in the hinges for the rudder is just plain asking for trouble. and I tend to believe in 0-0-0 alignments with perhaps a strong bis to always have SOME engine offset

How did BB do his rudder? How does Rusty Plan to do his?

I am leaning to carving off the "V" of the Rudder and laying it all up flat with the vertical Stab and gluing it all together before setting on the Fuselage

Thoughts...opinions

I also know to add just enough Vert Stab / Rudder offset to ensure that it does NOT Yaw in

L'kote might be good to mask and spray the LE seam. I personally will use clear tape as I did on the Oriental. But this plane has fairly decent overlap, 1/4" + 1/4" counting the amount on both sheets, the camo and blue. A whole overall L'kote job will be heavier than necessary. I had some wood exposed between some hinges and the coupler after hinging the elevator and just brushed some spar urethane on it.

My black window panels are misplaced and not sticking. Quick stencil and silver lacquer I have left over from the Tazz canopy.

I have not yet looked at the LG hardware, so stand by for my thoughts on that.

I'll align mine 2*(out-thrust)-0-0(both stock incidence), with somewhere between 0*~3* rt rudder... leaning toward zero. I just don't think it's necessary. Mike said he gave his rudder ~5* rt.

Also have not considered yet how to join the V-stab/rudder halves.

I'll let you know what I do. Still haven't gotten thin CA and CF to finish the job. I didn't have enough of any size CF tube after all.
Rusty

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SORRY BROTHER--- I HAVE TO....just cuz I like you

Post  fredvon4 on Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:59 pm

You know, fugg it , Rusty just has to deal with my interloping.....wink ---grin****

I am gonna put a BLUE LA 40 on mine and NOT do anything weird like his complicated mounts..

OK ---I do get it--- he is trying to use up a missing ear engine...

Commendable... butt very fiddly...too many NIB LA 40/ 46s out there... I would sell off the dud and get a new one

Just to bust his chops a bit more....once Rusty dials in the FP/LA 40 or 46 he is never gonna swap out for a EVO 36 or OS 35S.... so I know he is just doing this to teach him self how to .... good plan IMO

ON the Other Hand ----my brother Rusty is doing exactly as I do--- ADAPTING to what is one hand ====and come on FRED it IS just another ARF so what the hey!

Wife just left to visit all her GFs in Fayetteville NC and some Georgia areas--- so I have 10 days of chatting with my dogs and a much too cluttered shop

Thus ----I am dragging all the Brodak P40B ARF stuff to the main house*, waiting on the Brodak order for the fuel tank and canopy, and going to be a bit behind Rusty as I hijack his build thread

Loaded question for Ken Cook and Rusty (for that matter anyone else with an opinion)

Of these two what would you use

I Have 2 NIB OS LA 40s
One Silver with front NVA and metal back plate... three heat cycle bench runs
One Blue with plastic BP and NVA.... never seen fuel yet
Stock 3030 Mufflers and Tongue Mufflers for each

Pretty sure I am going to first use Thunder Tiger Cyclone 11 x 4.5 props

I also have 2 NIB OS LA 46 bu have other planes in mind for them


* I have a very very larger super flat Granite Island

**** folks on this forum who know my afternoon drinky poo habit will understand

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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  Ken Cook on Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:46 pm

Fred, just to clarify something there's no difference between the silver and blue LA engines. I had mentioned this prior the early LA .40's have a additional cut in the liner which is why I believe most early users found them not so stunt friendly. I have one of those .40's and for a disbeliever I'd be more than happy to post a picture of it. While the TT 11.5x4.5 is a prop that works, I found it not to work so well on the P-40 with the LA .40. There's a reason why so many jumped on it when it was available. For starters they were inexpensive not to mention balance out of the package. Thunder Tiger also offered in between pitch and diameters that APC and MA props weren't providing. They were good props. However, I find that prop more suited for the .46 over the .40. The ARF P-40 has a incredibly thick wing for a .40 size plane. The .46 suits this plane better in my opinion. I also found the .46 to be slightly more fuel economical over the .40. I was using almost 3/8 oz. more. I would measure the venturi of the used one and compare it to the new one provided it's a stock version. Most critical because many were putting the smaller .25 venturi in and I found that a terrific way to really overheat the engine.

                    I found the APC 10.5x4.5 to offer more drives without loading the engine too much. The 11.5x4.5 worked on my ARF but I like the APC better in terms of offering a more audible break and more tension in the overhead maneuvers. If your flying level and occasional loops then there shouldn't be an issue with the TT prop.  When I used it I would get into the square 8's and the engine was beginning to offer feedback that it was struggling. This is s tough maneuver and if you choke it too tight as with any of the overhead maneuvers it will load the engine. In my case it was clearly not enough rpm's when needed.

                Stock mufflers, what can I say I dislike them. Read what you want and believe what you experience. If your happy with it use it. They're too heavy and too restrictive. The first gen ARF which I fly is tail heavy, a stock muffler would help a beginner pilot. If you use a tongue as I do, your going to experience bouncing out of the bottoms of the squares and wingovers finding it difficult to maintain a clean transition from vertical to horizontal. The other issue with the P-40 is that out of all I have witnessed, they've been flying tip down in level flight and opposite in inverted requiring a trim tab. I use the trailing edge on the outboard wing  and slice it bending it down using ca and recover the slice.

                   The covering blows and no repairs or attempts that I have witnessed saves it. I should rephrase that and say it saves it until it comes off. It will come off. Your options is to fly it until it comes off or re do it while it's easy to access and do.

                    Backplates metal or plastic makes no difference on this engine. The question is, do you want your crankshaft to blow out the back of the case or stay in the engine in a crash? The plastic typically doesn't leak and the times I have seen them leak was when they were removed and reinstalled. Use #4 washers under the heads of the screws and it prevents the ears from breaking. I have never found the need to bench run a OS engine. I don't break them in on a bench nor do I heat cycle them. I put them on the plane and fly them. It's not a Fox .35., same goes for the EVO. Of the dozen examples I own of OS engines, they all work out of the box without wasting time on the bench. My Brodak .40 for example was extremely tight and required a few runs( 20 to be exact)  on the bench. Monitor fuel useage as a new engine is going to use more fuel improving as it breaks in.

                Personally I dislike the remote needle valves as I find they're pretty much useless. They won't peak the engine like the conventional up front set up does. They don't work in full bodied fuselages.  They also provide unreliable needle settings back to back. Reason for this is that you have to open the needle to offer better fuel flow for initial start and then lean it up again. Up front conventional OS assembly is all me.

             Just for the record, the FP.40, the LA .40, LA.46, the OS Max .35S, Brodak .40, have the same mounting pattern and case length. All of them interchange so if you find your .40 lacking, switch up to the .46.
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  RknRusty on Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:53 pm

Hey, good evening guys. I was just dinking around and saw you guys have been playing in my sandbox. Welcome, and carry on. On my way to piddle in the shop. Probably moving too slow to fly the P-40 tomorrow... or maybe not. Fred, fyi, I've got the LA.46 ready to bolt up. I decided it's the logical choice for an impatient pilot. Me. I better get some more props for it. I used an APC 12x4 on the Cardinal. Ken, I'll re-read whatever you said about props and start as close as I can to that. I posted replies to y'all and Roddie in the Bar Clamp thread.
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  Ken Cook on Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:27 am

Rusty, I would stick with the props that you've been using. The TT prop is no longer available. It's a foolish idea to get vested into using it The only reason that it gained popularity once again was due to the fellow on Stunt Hangar purchasing dozens of them and parting them out. I sent you one early on and you have that option to try it but unfortunately if a mishap occurs due to a possible flip over, game is over. The other side of this is the cost, it will more than likely be more than your current selections. I have seen this prop work quite well on many profiles using the .46. One thing I didn't mention in regards to the TT prop is the weight. This is a heavy prop, and I'm thinking without weighing it's more than your APC choices. Keep that in mind if your flying something that's borderline nose heavy and the turning ratio seems to be compromised. Ken
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  fredvon4 on Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:03 am

Ken
Thanks for all to observations and advice, especially about the props

When I got the OS FP40/ LA 40 and LA46s, each came with venturi and either front or remote needle. 2 came with additional metal back plates. And I promptly got some different Venturies and NVAs from Randy

I usually bench run all my engines not so much for break in but more to get plumbing figured, a initial needle setting and see how they behave on the needle to my various fuel mixes


So far, my observation, and your "fly right out of the box" recommendation seems spot on for the various OS engines I have
A lot of the success and fun I an having is paying attention to the set up advice from these forums

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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  Ken Cook on Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:39 pm

Fred, OS offered two sizes which was large and small. They never offered a size and you had to mic them yourself. The small was around .236. The Large I think was about .275. Many were using the smaller venturi's and bragging how great it works blah blah blah. I tried it in a full fuselage plane  and discovered if you really want to cook an engine this is how you can do it successfully. It totally chokes down the power which means you have to run the engine much leaner to get back the power you had with the larger. Makes a lot of sense huh? I suppose if you were stuck with a certain size tank capacity, this is a way of improving your economy but I felt it offered a lot less power and in two flights it was  removed. It didn't offer me enough economy to complete the pattern so I needed to increase the tank capacity. I purchased a flexible plastic tank and heated it a bit and squashed a 6 oz. into the compartment but I had a helluva time getting the plumbing in there.  Your venturi size is something that should be checked. This is important and due to your muffling options, this can seriously change your run times.  On profiles ,  I like to keep my venturi size around .273. However, I use the large OS equally. I've been using 5 oz. tanks because they can be guzzlers when used like this. I can do the pattern using 4.5 oz's but in the cooler months, it almost consumes the whole tank with little to no laps left unlike the summer having about 10 laps after the pattern. Ken


Last edited by Ken Cook on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  fredvon4 on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:49 pm

So my order from Brodak arrived today with the parts I wanted for the ARF P-40b

The recommended tank ( for once) does not rattle and the tabs are put on well

Against Ken's advice ( that I agree with) I am going to use it as is*

The clear canopy looks to be perfect once I cut away the current Profile Fuselage Balsa

I even, for the first time, bought some of the 4-40 brass inserts to try. But I will not be doing the same bar clamp method Rusty is doing....rather just inleted aluminum bearers and 1.5 or 2 degree wedges

*The few tanks I have ever opened, I made worse by my lack of skill, poor eyes, and shaky hands
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  Ken Cook on Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:10 pm

Using it as is may or may not have consequences. Nothing lost by trying it. What I do know, is that they use the incorrect solder and the pipes eventually fall out. They're not properly neutralized in my opinion either.  Generally they don't pass my air testing I do here.  In addition, the worst possible solder joint and the weakest joint you can have is a lap joint which is what Brodak does on the side of the tank facing the fuselage. If the tank is setup for uniflow, I have seen the pipes even plumbed the wrong way on these. Many time they're the wrong height internally.


             Just recently the fellow on Stunt Hangar had a picture of a tank he tried to solder and you commented in that post. Not one of the experienced persons on there even recognized or mentioned that his uniflow pipe was low in the picture. This is going to determine your tank height. So already the tank height is off if you start using the high point of the wedge as your starting point.

For the record, if your in search of a tank that generally has decent quality, GRW is the tank and Eric Rule carries them. Brodak tanks are a kit in themselves and he offers various tanks with all the pieces in the bag as a kit which is the best thing he could've done.
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  fredvon4 on Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:53 am

Brodak BH577 4oz deep wedge standard vent with mount tabs. This is the part from the ARF P-40B page of recommended item and the only tank I see from Brodak that already has the tabs soldered on

Years back I bought a few packets of the brass tabs and when I tried to solder then on I guess my cleaning and pre tinning technique was not good because a air tight tank now leaked...the more I chased the leaks the worse it got....mostly on the lap joint Ken mentioned above.....grrrrrr

Bought it even knowing all the various times Ken has posted all his thoughts in the many CEF threads about "Brodak Kit tanks"

Leak test and use as is...worst case it is or goes bad.... backup is a good Hayes Long Narrow 4 Oz got from Bad Bill that is sure to work just fine. Just not as easy to install

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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  fredvon4 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:03 pm

So Brother Rusty the weekend came and went

Bladder Grabber is done

Duke still AWOL

Mike L is showing off with Samuel....too cool

I wonder if you noticed RootBeard's cool Sea Hurricane and my question on how he did the shadowing of the panel lines?

I need only a few small pieces of the covering to close areas I wish I had not open the way I did

LT Grey, Olive Drab, LT blue

Gonna put out a general want add later for some scraps

Did you notice Randy Smith's offer to sell a few Brodak 40s, and OS LA 40/ 46s?....plus he has a good stock of metal back plates for them


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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  RknRusty on Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:57 pm

Hey, Fred,
I was beachin' this weekend, so only looked in a couple of times here at CEF, but not at the Hangar. I think I'll go see if I can get something done on the P-40 between now and my 9:30 Eastern show time. That'll help me get my head back in the groove so I don't bore my fellow video modelers.
Rusty

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What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is wrapping up.

Post  RknRusty on Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:55 pm

My last assembly update was two weeks ago.
RknRusty wrote:...So what's left is: glue stab to fuse, check wing root for gaps, hook up control horns, install LG, tail wheel, power plant & tank... probably something else. Look at the booklet and see if I did it right.
Rusty
Check, check, ex, check, ex, check & ex.
Of course, the Sister Thread to this one covered the engine mount which is all done.

I was surprised at what nice fillets can be made along the wing root by building up CA and using kicker. CA use, especially thin, on such a large scale is new to me and it shows with some pretty outstanding smears and runs. But damned if it ain't stuck together tight... and straight. Wayne's ACME profile jig, designed for the Twister but plenty adaptable, has been a big help in things such as wing and stab alignment. And this ARF was remarkably straight to start with.

No, I didn't bolster the LG at the wing mounts. When they break, I'll do that. I better check my prop to ground clearance before moving on to the tail wheel. I did have to do some bending to align the inboard wheel to track straight.

I guess tomorrow I'll make up the control rod and put it on. The dinky little crank to flap rod is sleeved with some tiny CF tube. I see no way to thread the tip end of it so I can screw a 2-56 ball link onto it. It's smaller than the minor dia. of 2-56, and any brass I could sleeve its tip with would have the opposite problem. So I'll probably solder and wire wrap a threaded 2-56 coupler onto it. Don't ever build a stunt ship with 1/16" wire and #2 hardware anywhere in the controls. That's just stupid, and my only real complaint so far.

I have a few tanks that are just a spit under the 5 ounces I need, and gave my best Sullivan 6 oz. clunker, along with a favorite muffler, to the Tutor when I returned it to Will Davis. Twas the least I could do for the favor of loaning me a double trophy winner. I bought a Sullivan 6 for the Cardinal, but it's clear and squishy, not the firm milky colored one I expected. So I can't use my usual gorilla strapping method. I'll have to engineer yet one more thing... ain't nuthin' simple? I can possibly use one of the old 5 oz. metal tanks from the Oriental. And there's half a chance I can buy a Sully or Dubro clunker in town.

Shooting for Sunday this time.
Rusty

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RknRusty
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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

Post  RknRusty Today at 12:12 am

Done, done, and done. Even the decals are on it. We blew off flying today because we would've had to mow during the mild morning time and start flying in the 100* wet heat.  Wayne shots traps on Tuesdays, we will fly Thursday. Just as well, I pulled an all nighter getting her finished Saturday night. And I still had more loose ends that I spent today doing right.

July 27th to August 20th. Wow, 24 days. 3 weeks, not even a month. The booklet said 5 hours. Only two pages of this assembly thread. That's gotta be a record.

Tomorrow I'll show you pictures of the finished product, phone's(camera) charging now. Eclipse coming up early afternoon. I'd like to fly through the blackout.

Stay tuned, I'll close this thing out Monday before my Stuntangar show.
Rusty

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...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


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Re: What's that big box by the back door... Or... The P-40 assy. is DONE.

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