Cox FW-190 wing. Has anyone reproduce it?

GallopingGhostler wrote:@Max-Ruiz, eso avión es muy hermoso y muy funcional. That airplane is very beautiful and very functional. I copied your plan to my hard disk. I don't have experience with Depron ni el Cox ala (wing). However, it también parece a good candidate for a modified symmetrical K-Flex wing. Hopefully, someone else will chime in words of wisdom for your build.

I read comments on the model it seems to be a good flyer. I´m not fan of the K-Flex type airfoils. And being i cuts foam wings, i want to go for a symmetrical airfoil same as plans

944_Jim wrote:ISTR this plane was designed to use the Super Stunter wing. Search for "Super Stunter" revealed this:
https://www.coxengineforum.com/t347-me-109-stunter-hollow-wing-version?highlight=foam+wing+focke+wulf

Someone here did a Super Stunter clone in balsa. I think it was one of our prime builders, but can't remember. I'll probably come back and edit this post...but wanted to see if "that guy" will pop up and give us some ideas or reference his original thread.

Edit#1: https://www.coxengineforum.com/t13966-cox-me-109-super-stunter-balsa-replica-build-v2-2020?highlight=Super+stunter

Edit#2: https://www.coxengineforum.com/t10294-wood-glues-and-other-questions#136967

And I recommend doing a search for "Super Stunter" and "Butcher Bird" to find all the others that may reference alternative wing construction and the history of this model. ISTR Larry Tenger was invves in the design as a way to market the foam wings to modellers that did not have the original Cox Super Stunter plane. I could be quite wrong too...that late fifties (years old) thing is fogging my brain!

Thanks a lot for the info. I´m already taking a look to those posts. I´m looking that the Super Stunter replica has build up wing. But I want to do it in foam. So, let´see what ideas may appear

Max-Ruiz wrote:I read comments on the model it seems to be a good flyer. I´m not fan of the K-Flex type airfoils. And being i cuts foam wings, i want to go for a symmetrical airfoil same as plans

Jim gave the right answer. Jim dio la respuesta derecha.

I remember Mark doing a post on FW190 foam wings
It may not have the information you're wanting but here's the link anyway.

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t6836-just-couldnt-sleep?highlight=foam+wing

Earlier this morning I checked StuntHangar and searched for the very same plan and references. I noted Mr.Renger was currently logged in, so I PMd him to invite him to color this thread. I didn't really expect a reply, after all we aren't on first name basis, and never passed any traffic. I did ask if he was involved in the FW-190 and the Super Stunter. However, he replied
"I did indeed design both the ME 109 and the Foke Wulf models.
Both could fly every maneuver in the stunt pattern."

I did a fast Google because I know I've seen this one someplace before. I just can't remember where, and don't have a full-size plan.
But I did find pictures of the wings which show the plans were sold with the wings:

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/cox-fw-190-kit-foam-wing-plans-super-412632833

I'll offer this up to anyone with a full-size copy...I have access to a professional grade large format scanner (I'm the maintainer). If you mail me the plan, I'll scan it, return it, and provide a digital copy at 300 or 600 dpi. PM for coordinating messages.

And I leave you with the biggie SH thread regarding the wing and the plane. It is a "registered-access only" type forum, but maybe y'all have that access:
https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/cox-super-stunter-plans-and-replacement-wings/

I'm watching this one to see where it goes.

944_Jim wrote:But I did find pictures of the wings which show the plans were sold with the wings:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/cox-fw-190-kit-foam-wing-plans-super-412632833

Important data from link:

E-Bay wrote:

E-Bay photo.

Cox FW-190 Kit Foam Wing Plans Super Stunter Chipmunk. [...] All build the same model, the Focke Wulf 190 Butcher Bird. Model is designed for .049 engine. Wingspan 27 3/4", weight of model 6 ounces. The wings are the same that Cox used on their Super Stunter and the Chipmunk models minus the plastic wing tips. The plans call for balsa tips.

944_Jim wrote:And I leave you with the biggie SH thread regarding the wing and the plane. It is a "registered-access only" type forum, but maybe y'all have that access:
https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/cox-super-stunter-plans-and-replacement-wings/

Historically significant notes from Stunt Hangar thread:

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/cox-super-stunter-plans-and-replacement-wings/msg26041/#msg26041

Dick Sarpolus, Reply #17 on January 19, 2007 wrote:The Cox ME-109 foam wing panels are 13 1/2" long, 6" chord at the root, 5" chord at the tips, equal taper planform.  The foam is about 1/8" thick, molded with a thin strip at the leading edge so it can be folded there and glued at the trailing edge.  3/4" plastic formed wingtip caps, they're very heavy.  At the root when pushed on the fuselage stubs the airfoil is 1 1/8" thick, at the tips it's about 7/8" thick.  These pictures should show them pretty well.







Similar wings could be hot wire cut with spars top and bottom, Phil Cartier at the Corehouse cuts beautiful cores.  His half-a Lil Hacker foam cores are about the same size as these Cox wings, more taper in Phil's, they make a great half-a airplane.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/cox-super-stunter-plans-and-replacement-wings/msg36129/#msg36129

Larry Renger, Reply #28 on April 02, 2007 wrote:Gentlemen, thanks for your kind words on the C*x Me109 wings.  They were my doing.

In addition to the Me109 and Chipmunk variations in plastic, there was the Skyfire published in Flying Models May 1975 and kitted by M&P Models around August of that year.  Of course there was also the free plan for the FW-190 that came with a set of wings as a promo for the Black Widow engine (or separate purchase).

I revisited the Skyfire design with a wire-cut foam shell wing.  The surface was brown wrapping paper applied via a vacuum bag system.  This one was published in Model Aviation in Feb 2002.  Very strong, very light, very smooth!  What's not to like?

On the "never saw the light of day" front, there was a Crusader with moveable flaps and a combat wing that used the original wings. Eventually the little Crusader with a different set of wings made it to production. Due to the difficulty of finding a vendor willing to set aside production for egg cartons and hamburgers, the wing was redesigned in solid foam (I don't know who did that, I wasn't at C*x at the time).  The model gained nearly an ounce and did not fly as well.  

https://stunthanger.com/smf/12-a-building/cox-super-stunter-plans-and-replacement-wings/msg36169/#msg36169

Larry Renger, Reply #32 on April 02, 2007 wrote:Tears to my eyes guys!  Thanks. Ugly Bug?  Actually a fun use for Ace Foam wings, which, by the way are again available.  Wonder how it would fly as a UC stunter?  Naaaah!

For the ETO, you could do a Jug or a Mustang.  What else was there other than a Spitfire?.  I suppose you could do a Hurricane because it had straight tapered wings, but it was badly outclassed as I recalled.  If you were willing to go a bit farther afield, I think there were P-38s used in the ETO, so how about a couple of TD .020s?  A Mosquito twin would be fun too!  Real aircraft are not actually my forte', my education not withstanding.
Theory, not history was the goal.

To be continued ....

I think the hollow foam wing cores are very poor. I own both the Chipmunk and the Super Stunter with the hollow foam. They're absolutely terrible. They don't hold a true airfoil, the double backed tape fails at the trailing edge in short time. In addition, the lines that appear to be panel lines molded into the foam is nothing more than stress risers that cause the foam to crease which is absolutely not repairable once it does. During flight, they flex which causes the maneuver to mush out. You can reproduce a balsa wing quicker, lighter and stronger so why would you want that horrible crap? It was a cost saving issue that was lighter than plastic, cheaper and quicker to produce vs balsa. None of the above planes I have come in at 6 oz's and I truly couldn't see how they could. The Super Stunter is around 10 oz's. While the Cox offerings were essentially decorated door stops, I can see the FW-190 actually being a formidable plane. It's nice to see a design with zero deg offsets in mind, it's as if someone actually knew what they were doing.

       As far as the Super Stunter flying the pattern, I would invite a video to see it. I might just be able to nurse one through a true AMA pattern but these things are tanks and a Black Widow has barely enough horsepower to drive it through without making the maneuvers extremely large. Yes, it will do some but I will say for example the square eights is a maneuver that will taxi a competent airframe and powerplant. My Chipmunk does so so with the gear removed but it sinks like a rock when coming out of the maneuvers on the bottom end like the vertical eight.

            The box did state will do the entire pattern, this was also being done by some of the most competent flyers of the day. My hollow foam winged was flown at the NATS in the early 70's. Now it sits on a shelf as the plastic is not doing so well. My solid foam winged version is far superior to it. The hollow wing version flexes badly which not only can fold it, but it causes the trailing edge joint to separate. No glue I've found works for any length of time. I tried RC-56, canopy glue, Elmer's glue. Maybe epoxy would work.

Thanks, GG, for your editorial skills. I didn't have the patience or time to export from SH. I'm very impressed by your bilingual answers...you are excersizing my very stale, uneducated and poor Spanish!

Thanks Ken, for your color commentary. There is nothing like Eye-Whitness (and owner/operator) accounts for how something behaves.

For Max-Ruiz, I certainly understand the pleasures of nostalgia trips (if you knew me, you would know I'm a walking nostalgia/museum piece). I suspect that for this small an airplane, doing any foam "clone" will be a drawn-out excersize in frustration. Considering Ken's responses, and my lack of foam-building knowledge, I would be satisfied to build a wood-winged version in less time than it takes to learn foam construction techniques, and have fun flying the plane.

Opinion follows:

For Fredv4 (because I'm referencing your kit)...I'm cleaning up the Hobby Closet so I can finish that fabulous Hyper Viper clone (and a few others). I mention it as the original Hyper Viper was also a foam wing plane, and this non-foam wing is phenomenal!

So what is the relevence to the Hyper Viper about? Another "Cox foamie" clone that uses a built-up wing. RknRusty's plane got me excited to have this one. The reference is for Max-Ruiz, so he can see how balsa can easily replace foam and provide a superior product. The evidence shows Cox designed the plans/wing kit as a promo for selling engines. I doubt Cox intended for the wings to be great.  I've always considered foam to be the expediant, short term, cheap expendable solution. A hybrid wood-framed, blue fan-fold, or meat-tray skinned solution would look the part, and most likely be very strong and fairly light. And as Ken suggests, a cut-foam block wing would be heavier, especially if wood-skinned. I did note Mr. Larry successfully experimented with a paper covered foam-block wing. But I'm back to just how long would it take for me to learn those build techniques?

Max-Ruiz, respectfully, I know you want a foam solution for nostalgia. But there is a great deal of nostalgic warm fuzzies from flying old planes too. I'm watching this thread with excitement for you!

And my offer still stands... anyone got the plans? I'll do the full-size scans.

So here is an un-finished foam-clone in balsa:

944_Jim wrote:Thanks, GG, for your editorial skills. I didn't have the patience or time to export from SH. I'm very impressed by your bilingual answers...you are excersizing my very stale, uneducated and poor Spanish!

No hay de qué, Jim. (Don't mention it.) I am by no means good at it, although I have some practice at it. I led several songs in Spanish during our worship service this past Sunday, using my arranger keyboard with midi loops as the backing band (Karaoke  on the fly. ) Also memorized over 2 dozen verses in Spanish. Bible (la Biblia) deals with life (la vida), learn esperanza (hope, wait), amor (love), paciencia (patience), bondad (goodness), paz (peace), corazón (heart), ley (law), etc.

I deal with the local Hispanic population weekly here in Clovis. (I have found that when I attempt to speak to them in Spanish, all of a sudden their English becomes good. )

Much of the history here in Clovis is from the Mexicans with some claiming la sangre de ancestros, quienes tengan piel de blanca, originalmente de España (the blood of Spanish white skin ancestors), but lately we've been having others desde otros países sur de nuestra frontera (from other countries below our border).

Our recently transfered out pastors were originally from México, the wife asked the 9yo daughter if she was a méxicana, she replied very defiantly but proudly back in Spanish, "soy hondureña" (I am a Honduran). Seems especially with the news media, everyone is looking for the bad. However, reality is truer than fiction, and overall, find quite a different story at least in this rural community than some would have you to believe.

944_Jim wrote:So what is the relevence to the Hyper Viper about? Another "Cox foamie" clone that uses a built-up wing. RknRusty's plane got me excited to have this one. The reference is for Max-Ruiz, so he can see how balsa can easily replace foam and provide a superior product.

The evidence shows Cox designed the plans/wing kit as a promo for selling engines. I doubt Cox intended for the wings to be great.  I've always considered foam to be the expediant, short term, cheap expendable solution. A hybrid wood-framed, blue fan-fold, or meat-tray skinned solution would look the part, and most likely be very strong and fairly light.

And as Ken suggests, a cut-foam block wing would be heavier, especially if wood-skinned. I did note Mr. Larry successfully experimented with a paper covered foam-block wing. But I'm back to just how long would it take for me to learn those build techniques?

Max-Ruiz, respectfully, I know you want a foam solution for nostalgia. But there is a great deal of nostalgic warm fuzzies from flying old planes too. I'm watching this thread with excitement for you!

And my offer still stands... anyone got the plans? I'll do the full-size scans.

So here is an un-finished foam-clone in balsa:

Really fine craftsmanship, Jim.

Judging by the answers, I gather that @Max-Ruiz may be doing like a lot of us are doing here, wanting to replicate as closely as possible, the plane as Cox designed it, with as close to genuine as possible, foam wing. For example, Bob made a replica of La Viuda (The Widow), Lodela, Cox Mexico's RTF with the Jim Walker fuselage and paper covered balsa wing and tail surfaces.

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t3303p25-extremely-rare-cox-thimble-drome-prototype-black-widow-gas-model-airplane#185248

a betancourt on July 29, 2020 wrote:

https://www.coxengineforum.com/t3303p75-extremely-rare-cox-thimble-drome-prototype-black-widow-gas-model-airplane#199371

rsv1cox on June 30, 2021 wrote:This is still one of my favorite CEF threads.  Happydad was a prime contributor.  Levent's decals. @WingingIt74 really started something.

May be I am wrong, but I gather that in his community in Argentina, they have Cox collectors and enthusiasts, who want to display their replicas plus relive the experience of flying these, they can experience the thrill of flying the real article.


From Dick Sarpolus, Stunt Hangar Reply #17 on January 19, 2007

If one looks closely at the measurements given from the Stunt Hangar posts, I think that can come up with a reasonable facsimile (copia) of this foam wing. The photos show enough data too, that the ascribed panel outlines could be duplicated, too.

George,

Soy Americano y Cubano, pero no habla Espanol. And years later that is an embarrassment my dad won't let me live down. Especially as I came home from Iraq functionally speaking Kurdish. However, as I told my father, it was in my life's best interest to understand and speak the language of a region I was deployed to for over a year. Almost 20 years later, I can rightfully claim my Spanish is better than my Kurdish.

You've credited me with something not of my doing! This Hyper Viper kit was produced as an Almost-Ready-to-Cover kit by Southridge CNC. The producer has dropped out of making kits. It really is too bad. He had some really neat designs. I've seen a Weddell Williams vintage racing plane kitted in 1/2A by the same guy over on StuntHangar about 18-24 months ago. I won't let myself drift this thread into the weeds, but will admit seeing the job Rusty did with his will knock your socks off!

Responded to your PM. Print can be sent no problem. Send me your address.

MEANWHILE:  for those of you who can't wait, Here is a PDF file linc on StuntHanger   RCGroups:  scroll down to report #9:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1141398-Cox-Focke-Wulf-FW-190A

Hi Max, hollow depron wings are flimsy as Ken stated. Simply cut or carve (outdoors) the wings from foam sheet and add wing spars. They can be covered with film.

Depron don't hold any paint or fuel proofer on it's surface well.

https://planet-soaring.blogspot.com/2017/11/wing-covering-with-adhesive-films.html

Still have this that I built in the early eighties. The balsa/spruce spar runs tip to tip, and the end pieces were glued to it. I painted it red 10 years ago but forgot the type of paint I used. It did not attack the foam in any way. It could have been Fascolor, a paint used to paint R/C car bodies. Being water based it was fuel proof. The plane was built with white glue, using epoxy for the engine mount. It flies better than my skills would be capable of doing. LOL!

Good showing, CA! That's a survivor piece. Thanks for posting the pictures.

Wow! I never expected so many replies to the post. I couldn´t been here for a while and to quote all of you is almost a hard task. But I want to thanks a lot!!
I just readed all of you. And of course there´s a lot to think.
I´m not nostalgic as i never flew the original. I´d like to build one, and as i´m a fan of foam wings, that´s the stuff i want to use. But sure i´m not going to use the same foam as Cox did. The original, almost sure, is XPS (extruded polistyrene), and i don´t like it. Very interesting the story about wing flexing. Is the first time i see one mentions it.
I´m already preparing a pair of templates for a Ringmaster Baby foam wing. Double cored. It´s a challenge as the airfoil in that size is not easy to hollow, but i think i can do it. So it will be the test for the upcoming FW-190 one. Covered in kraft paper. Sure will not flex as i did that kind of construction in the past for .35 - .40 engines and never had a folded wing in flight due to G´s on maneuvers. And no flexing.
I will post the results on R. Baby to tell you how it works.
Again, thanks a lot for your replies and all the info you provide. I´ll take a look at StuntHanger as i´m registered there too