Re: Hobbico's "Cox Super Fuel"

tru168 Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:39 pm

Towerhobbies still selling cox super fuel. From their info, coxmodels.com supply them.
I think we should email to coxmodels.com about this?

GallopingGhostler Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:09 am

tru168 wrote:Towerhobbies still selling cox super fuel. From their info, coxmodels.com supply them.
I think we should email to coxmodels.com about this?

I believe they are a company of the Hobbico consortium. Since as far as I know, Hobbico bought O'Donnell Fuels, I think it may be a product from them.

Cox International Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:49 am

coxmodels.com is a domain of Hobbico and was registered by them after they bought Estes/Cox.

Mike Mulligan Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:59 pm

It is pretty amazing how fuel sensitive these things are. The first Cox engine I had flown in decades was a Hyper Viper back when those first came out. It didn't even occur to me to use any special fuel, so I flew it on the Powermaster 15% that I was using in my ABC stunt motors. After three flights it became impossible to start and the plane got shelved

I now use that motor as a set up motor when I'm building a new plane because it is basically ruined. The crank wobbles, the rod has something like ten to fifteen thou worth of play and there is very little compression. I won't make that mistake again...

Mike

GallopingGhostler Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:07 pm

Mike Mulligan wrote:It is pretty amazing how fuel sensitive these things are. The first Cox engine I had flown in decades was a Hyper Viper back when those first came out. It didn't even occur to me to use any special fuel, so I flew it on the Powermaster 15% that I was using in my ABC stunt motors. After three flights it became impossible to start and the plane got shelved. I now use that motor as a set up motor when I'm building a new plane because it is basically ruined. The crank wobbles, the rod has around 25 thousandths play and there is very little compression. I won't make that mistake again... Mike

You probably already know this, but http://www.coxinternational.ca has parts for your engine to restore it.

tru168 Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:50 pm

Since coxmodels.com is actually under Hobbico, they still keep selling the same fuel even knowing that low castor contain will harm our Cox engine. Really hope Hobbico will change their ingredients to proper one.

PeterJGregory Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:32 am

Some of the best info on Cox Super Fuel (CSF) I have found on the internet is in this thread.
Some of you here have related ACTUAL personal experience with low- or no-castor oil fuels destroying your engines.
Well, as a test of how appropriate CSF is, I just ordered up two new SureStart engines from eBay to perform an experiment .
I'll run Sig 25% Champion Fuel in one, CSF in the other. Both will be broken in per Cox's old guidelines - 3 tanks of fuel with the engines set rich.
No mention was made in the Cox guidelines about how big a tank - I'll use an ounce for each run.

Cheers-

pkrankow Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:37 am

Considering the instructions are the same for a baby bee, 5ml is a tank full, 60ml is a long run.

Phil

GallopingGhostler Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:28 am

Larger Golden Bee / Black Widow tank is 8 cc. 1 oz. is 30 cc. That it 6 times the volume of the 5 cc Babe Bee tank. Depended upon prop, if run time is 2.5 minutes on 5 cc, that is 15 minutes on 30 cc. 48 flights would be eight 1 oz. tank fulls, about 2 hours. It would be interesting to see what tankful the engine would start to lose compression on the Cox fuel.

YMMV (Your mileage may vary) Very Happy

**RknRusty** Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:44 pm

I'll be interested to see your results Peter. More proof adds to our credibility on this issue, thanks for your sacrifice. If you can document it on video that will be even better.
Rusty

GUS THE I.A. Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:30 am

If this is the fuel I get at the LHS, in a round, plastic bottle that says "COX" on it, I don't have any problems with it!

I flew all the flights totalling over 12 hours, in the Flight Contest with it, and it performed well.
I think Mike took some home with him, and performed an analysis on the fuel, and said it would be okay. For giggles, I tracked the lifespan of a quart, in the .051, and the engine used about a quart every 3-1/2 to 4 hours in flight, if I recall correctly. Good enough for me!

Maybe it has not destroyed my engine(s) because I do not needle them to the upper limits of lean, high-revving powerband, that some folks do, and have trouble. When I'm done flying, there is a pinkish-orange goo, to wipe off of the airplane.That is evidence to me, that raw fuel, and oil, are being passed through the engine-doing the lubricating and cooling job, in addition to adequate airflow.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!
GUS.

GallopingGhostler Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:34 am

Castor oil has a high flash point than the other oils. It will continue to lubricate where the others will combust. Not sure what contest you were in. These engines are limited in power and for most models require their peak output in order to perform adequately in flight.

GUS THE I.A. Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:54 am

The label on the quart bottle does not say Hobbico on it anywhere, However, it does say ESTES, for COX engines.

**RknRusty** Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:38 am

GallopingGhostler wrote:Not sure what contest you were in.

George, that was one of our CEF contests. It was just to see how many hours in flight we could put on any one Cox engine of a member's choice over the period of a year. That was Ron Cribbs' idea and he kept track of our logged flight times.

Gus, I wonder if the Estes mix was Cox's old formula. Probably no way to tell now unless you want to do a cook down test.
Rusty

WingingIt74 Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:45 am

From here:
http://www.coxmodels.com/fuel/index.html

Super Power Fuel®

Premium blend 1/2A fuel for proven performance.

Available in value-priced quarts, Super Power fuel for 1/2A model engines meets the highest quality standards — standards that have earned Cox an outstanding reputation among control line, free flight and R/C hobbyists for over six decades.

Ideal for airplane, car or boat use, Super Power fuel offers many performance advantages. Among them: high RPM, smooth idling, and enhanced engine protection!

• Premium blend 25% nitro formula.
• Surpasses 15% nitro fuel’s performance with higher RPM, better throttle response, smoother idle and reduced needle valve sensitivity.
• Special 18% oil package includes the latest hi-tech synthetics combined with castor to protect and lubricate the aluminum journals and plain steel bearings used in small displacement engines.
• Available in economical 1 quart (946 mL) size.
• Made in the USA.

Oil Package Content:
• 90% Synthetic
• 10% Castor
• Total Oil Package Volume 18%

**RknRusty** Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:47 pm

Travis, we've seen that, but what about the Estes Cox fuel like Gus has. I was wondering if it was a Leroy Cox blend rather than the above low castor formula.
Rusty

WingingIt74 Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:46 pm

Gus can you take a picture of the bottle? I'm curious myself.

**Admin** Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:24 pm

GUS THE I.A. wrote:The label on the quart bottle does not say Hobbico on it anywhere, However, it does say ESTES, for COX engines.

I'm guessing you're talking about a bottle of stuff like this.

test stands - Hobbico's "Cox Super Fuel" - Page 4 20140823

I've used this stuff back when the hobby shop had it available. I really don't know what the mixture is but my engines survived. The fuel seemed to be the same as the stuff that was available in the tin cans like the cans Bernie is selling (same color, same smell, the engines ran just as good, left everything covered in castor oil after running). The hobby shop (Hub Hobby) used to sell it in individual bottles and in starter kits like the one pictured. I bought all the remaining starter kits they had several years ago (which was about 6 kits). I sold a few to some guys out at the field (which is now a wind farm and fenced off) but still have I think 3. All the bottles are still full and unopened.

*I just opened the bottle in the picture and split the threads in the cap putting it back on OOPS. The cap went back on but its sealed in a Ziploc bag for now. I'll have to find one of my old empty bottles to swap the cap with. Be careful with these plastic bottles, they're getting old and the plastic cap is getting fragile from years of exposure to the fuel.

GallopingGhostler Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:48 pm

WingingIt74 wrote:From here:
http://www.coxmodels.com/fuel/index.html

[....]
Oil Package Content:
• 90% Synthetic
• 10% Castor
• Total Oil Package Volume 18%

That equates to 16.2% synthetic oil and 1.8% Castor oil for a total of 18%. Old Leroy Cox's blend was better, I used that stuff back in the early 1980's for my Cox engines. As Bernie of Cox International stated, the oil content of this newer fuel is insufficient to maintain good protection of the Cox engine internals.

balogh Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:54 am

I would never substitute 1 drop of synthetic for castor. No wonder my longest runner TD051 has 100+ hours on it with as-new compression and ball joint.

balogh Sun Sep 28, 2014 12:56 am

I would never substitute 1 drop of synthetic for castor. No wonder my longest runner TD051 has 100+ hours on it with as-new compression and ball joint.

sdjjadk Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:19 am

I'm just thinking out loud here but why is 1/2A fuel always sold in quarts? And why is it more expensive just because it's "1/2A Fuel"?
If I'm not mistaking, the original COX Sport blend was nothing more than 15% nitro with 10% total oil being castor right?
Well you can get Wildcat Premium Xtra 15% with 18% oil (80% Synthetic and 20% Degummed Racing Castor) for $94.99 per case which equals $23.74 per gallon less shipping.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXA316
Where as most 15% -25% 1/2A fuels sell for $10.00 and up per Qt. which equals $40.00 and up per gallon.less shipping.
Even car fuels with 20% - 25% nitro is a lot cheaper than 1/2A fuel so that should rule out nitro content as being a price factor.

Shawn

GallopingGhostler Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:30 am

That $95 case of fuel has a hazmat shipping fee that needs including. UPS currently charges $28.50. Tower's normal shipping fee is $10, total is $133.50 divided by 4 gallons = $33.38 per gallon. Hobby shop is cheaper, would be better to special order through them if they do it.

Sig Champion Fuel 25% Nitro, 10% Castor/10% Synth is $22.49 x 4 = $89.96 + $9.95 Shipping + $28.50 UPS Hazmat = $128.41 : 4 = $32.10 per gallon.

Same fuel in quarts is $8.39 each x 16 quarts = $134.24 + $9.95 Shipping = $144.19 : 4 = $36.05 per gallon.

It is slightly cheaper to pay the Hazmat fee. However, you'd have to do a lot of half-A flying to consume 4 gallons. A .46 or .60 sized RC airplane is a different story. Even a .35 stunt CL will take a while to chew away at 4 gallons.

I'd think most would have all the half-A fuel they need if they ordered a couple quart bottles.

Additional comment: For those flying the larger CL planes and older RC mehanite piston with steel sleeve and plain bearing crankshaft, Sig has their 25% all Castor oil Champion 5% nitro fuel for $14 per gallon x 4 + 28.50 + $9.95 = $94.45 : 4 = $23.61 per gallon. That is not a bad price if one's hobbyshop doesn't offer Sig fuel or Sig fuel by special order (provided they don't charge you for hazmat).

andrew Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:31 am

GallopingGhostler wrote:.....

I'd think most would have all the half-A fuel they need if they ordered a couple quart bottles.

Agreed -- a half gallon of 1/2A fuel will go a long way.

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