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"Cox Tee Dee .010"



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Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

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Sad Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  KariFS on Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:30 pm

Just had one of those learning experiences. Not sure yet what I learned but there hopefully is something. Sorry for the long post, I need to vent and process this in my brain, and writing it down is a good way to do it. The question is in the last paragraph so feel free to skip to the end.

I bought a TeeDee today. It's never been run, the guy had had it since the early '80s. Well oiled and clean. The plastic part that holds the carb was split but he threw in a new spare part for that. I already replaced it, no problem.

I tried to turn the engine, it had quite a lot of compression and I couldn't turn it to TDC by just turning the prop drive plate. I didn't install a propeller for leverage, as I thought that with all the oil and a high compression head there might be a hydro-lock and decided to remove the head. I tried with one wrench in the cooling fin cut-outs on the cylinder and another on the head. It wouldn't budge. Instead the wrench on the cylinder started to open its jaws and almost slipped, but got stuck between the fins of the cylinder and the head, bending the aluminum fins of course DAMMIT!

I decided to use the other jaws of the wrench meant to be placed to the exhaust ports, but was concerned that I may damage the piston so I removed the entire cylinder, which was not really tight. Then I placed my wrenches and started to turn. It did open but was really tight. You could have used the traces on my hands as templates for wrenches, kinda like what happened to that nazi fellow in that Indiana Jones movie.

So the head was off. Time to reassemble the whole thing again. But the piston won't go past the mid-way of the exhaust ports! Now what? It seems that I managed to deform the cylinder slightly. There is no apparent marks anywhere in the cylinder walls, only the slight tool marks at the sides of the exhaust ports where they were in contact with the wrench. Not really even close to the cylinder bore. At one point the cylinder wall between the bypass and exh ports is really narrow, i'm thinking about 1mm (3/64" or so) or maybe less. Could it really be possible that I could have deformed a cylinder with those dingy little sheetmetal wrenches?

Any suggestions besides getting a new cylinder? Maybe hone it with something? Or use a fine file to create a chamfer between the cylinder wall and exhaust port? I do have a dremel and some polishing tools... That area of the cylinder is not critical as far as tightness goes since all the ports are open when the piston passed this area. It more or less just "guides" the piston at this point, I think. Just need to make sure there is nothing that would hurt the piston, right?

Thanks in advance!
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:57 pm

Sounds like you turned a burr into the cylinder. Pretty common occurence when using a wrench in the exhaust port.

Why was the head that tight?

Get the cylinder under a magnifying glass and see if you can see a burr in the cylinder around the exhaust port(s)

It can carefully be scraped away with a razor knife or if it's bad then a fine rat tail file may work. Easy does it though.

Ron
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  TDbandit on Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:13 pm

Cribbs74 wrote:Sounds like you turned a burr into the cylinder. Pretty common occurence when using a wrench in the exhaust port.

Why was the head that tight?

Get the cylinder under a magnifying glass and see if you can see a burr in the cylinder around the exhaust port(s)

It can carefully be scraped away with a razor knife or if it's bad then a fine rat tail file may work. Easy does it though.

Ron
I second that, Good advice!
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  pkrankow on Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:55 pm

Third. Not a whole lot of other choices really. I have been there and done that myself.

Tip, use heat next time A hair dryer is often enough to free a stuck head, a heat gun is better.

Phil
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Oldenginerod on Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:58 pm

Your wrench shouldn't contact the inside edge of the exhaust port if it's inserted fully and correctly.  I'm hoping you slipped the wrench either side of the cylinder and didn't place one of the prongs through the port.  ( DAMMIT! I had to ask!)
The thin walled cylinders have been known to distort, but I think that is generally below the ports when the cylinder is tight in the case.  The cylinder can also bend in a crash.  If indeed there is a burr then it's best to file it gently from the outside, using a very narrow file through the exhaust port.  Otherwise you could mark the bore.
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Mark Boesen on Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:08 pm

PLEASE, WHEN DISASSEMBLING AN ENGINE USE HEAT!

Lol, I wasn't shouting, just wanted to make a point, hopefully you've learned a lesson and hopefully someone reading this will take a minute to heat up the engine (to where its almost too hot to hold) this will soften up the caster and/or dried oil first before they apply too much torque.

I know we've all done it....my worst was a broke crank on a mint Holland Hornet that took me almost a year to find a replacement.

Hopefully it is a burr, but depending on how hard you wrenched it, it might have deformed the cylinder or glowhead.
-If its a mint cylinder a little tape on the inside of wrench is not a bad idea to prevent marks.
-check for a slight burr and scape it off with an x-acto knife.
-clean the piston and cylinder with solvent, steel wool or a scotch brite pad (preferred) trial fit it and hopefully it will work.
-You might want to start looking for a replacement just in case.
-Was it a thick #4?


Last edited by Mark Boesen on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  RknRusty on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:25 pm

I burred an exhaust port on a #2 cylinder on a Medallion one time. I had trouble completely cleaning it up, so I took an old loose fitting piston and ran it a few times with that and re-tried the fit of its original piston. It fit smoothly after that. That's kind of a redneck way to fix it, but it worked. Sooner or later this happens to everyone who isn't afraid to take an engine apart. So don't feel too bad about it.
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  batjac on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:30 pm

RknRusty wrote:I burred an exhaust port on a #2 cylinder on a Medallion one time. I had trouble completely cleaning it up, so I took an old loose fitting piston and ran it a few times with that and re-tried the fit of its original piston. It fit smoothly after that. That's kind of a redneck way to fix it, but it worked. Sooner or later this happens to everyone who isn't afraid to take an engine apart. So don't feel too bad about it.
Rusty

Hmmm.... Never thought of having a sacrificial piston on hand for just that situation. Don't think I have any trashed pistons, though. I'll have to remember that for the future. I can add it to my oddball tools set.

The Redneck Mark
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  balogh on Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:16 am

The old and uselessly worn piston pushed down from the top of the cylinder may remove some burrs from the exhaust area without scratching a mark on the cylinder upper part and desrtroying compression
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Ken Cook on Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:39 am

The solution to fixing your burr is simple. Obtain a piece of 3/8" K&S tubing . Cut the piece about 5" long and wrap a piece of 3/4" masking tape around the top. Take the  ORIGINAL piston and allow the rod to drop into the center of the tubing. Push the skirt down and onto the tubing, The inside of the skirt is tapered. The tape should provide resistance to turning  and a snug fit. If it's not snug, add some more tape. Insert the piston into the cylinder UPSIDE DOWN from the bottom up. The tubing will now be sticking out of the top of the cylinder. Now pull the piston up to the exhaust cutouts until the piston skirt hits the burr. Obtain some Brasso or liquid rubbing compound . Dupont #7 white rubbing compound will also work. Toothpaste is another solution but I don't like the way it cakes up so liquid polishes such as Brasso or liquid silver polishes work very well. Paste like polishes such as Mother's or Simichrome from Happich also works. Just a little is necessary with the paste polishes and they can be applied into the cylinder with a Q-tip prior to piston insertion. Now begin to twirl the piston with the tubing and move it in a up and down swirling motion. Add more Brasso if needed. This could take around 5 minutes to complete. Consistently move the tubing up and down at the same time your rotating the piston. Once the burr is removed, turn the piston around and install it correctly from the bottom up. If the piston becomes lodged within the cylinder, the tape on the tubing will give way requiring new tape. Tap the piston out with a wooden dowel and re insert trying again. Don't be forceful. I've salvaged every cylinder I've done this too.

                   At this point, you want to continue to lap the piston into the cylinder but remain low in the bore. DON'T bring the piston to the top of the bore. Stay low in the bore rotating and moving the piston up and down simultaneously. I do this with most of my engines in order to relieve any pinch or tightness at the bottom of the bore. This allows for much higher rpm's.At this stage, if you have a bore brush you could provide some crosshatch marks with the brush prior to cleaning in order to assist what will essentially be a new run.  Remove the piston from the cylinder and also the tubing. I use an old toothbrush which I've sanded the hard plastic edges so that the brush goes into the cylinder. I use hot soapy water and clean the inside of the cylinder. You need to wash all traces of the polish from the cylinder. Let dry, using a heat gun expedites this. Do the same with the piston rod and make sure you dry the ball socket as best as possible using heat. At this stage with no lubrication install the piston into the cylinder.  The piston should slide into the bottom of the cylinder and stick directly at the top of the landing where the glow plug seats. A simple tap should allow it to drop out and into your hand. Remove and lubricate properly and run in like any other engine. All should be fine.

               I get these for free from the plumbers on the job. They're laying all over the place as they come with certain fixtures. It never dawned on me until I realized I never really saw a strap wrench this small. I watched hundreds of them go out in the trash and one day I recognized these would be perfect for cylinder removal  http://www.sloanplumbingparts.com/sloan-ebv-22-strap-wrench . I'm not sure if this is the same wrench as I have, but the overall length is only 5" long. If you know a plumber, ask away. Ken
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  KariFS on Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:55 am

Gentlemen, or dare I say Friends, thank you for taking the time to help me with my problem.

@Ron, Phil & Bandit: Glad I am not alone Wink I tried a knife, then a small diamond file that fit through the exhaust ports, but the piston still sticks right in the middle of the height of the exh ports. The file is not quite as fine I would like so I'll have to get another one to make the edge all smooth and shiny again, but I don't think I can file it enough, right now it seems the deformation is not right in the edge of the port.

I don't know why the head was so tight, it was a lot tighter than it should have been, and a lot tighter than necessary. I don't think I could ever get it that tight with reasonable force and the wrenches supplied. There were no tool marks on any of the parts so it probably has been like that from the factory. The cylinder was not very tight in the crankcase. I looked at the threads of the head and cylinder, they were completely dry, not a drop of oil, and the thread on the head was kind of roughly finished. You may see it in the picture attached, to me it looks like it was done with worn tooling. The thread on the cylinder looks OK.

@Rod: Yeah, it's good to make sure Smile  I had the tool correctly positioned, contact points in the edges of the ports, no part of the tool inside the cylinder. In the picture you may see the mark the tool made on the left side of the port. Looks like a punch mark, but I didn't hit the cylinder or the tools with anything, used no extra leverage, just my (bare) hands on the tools. The engine has never run and there were no scratches or other signs on it either, so it looks like it hasn't been in a crash. But during the 30 years, who knows what may have happened. Before I disassembled it, I couldn't turn it to the TDC by the drive plate, but that was because of the compression, it was not sticking mechanically. So whatever happened, it was most likely caused by yours truly.

@Mark: Go ahead, it's OK to shout lol! With my age and experience I should have known not to force it, but I am surprised if I managed to severely deform the cylinder. With my accent I may sometimes sound like Gov. Schwartzenegger but my physical strength is not "Terminator" level. Close but not quite there yet lol! Like I said, only the original tools and my bare hands were used. No vise, no tabletop or anything else as a support, me sitting down at my desk at home. And the engine being externally in flawless condition and properly oiled with sewing machine oil, I didin't think anything could really be stuck so I just thought it being tight was just caused by my inadequate strength. So I applied more force until it broke loose. I should have used heat, or maybe I should have stuck the cylinder and the head in the freezer to let it (and myself) cool off, and then start to heat the cylinder, that might have helped to loosen the head.

The cylinder is a thick-wall #4. I may get some of Bernie's moodified cylinders anyway for some other engines, so I'll get an extra unit for this one, just in case.

@Rusty, Mark & Balogh: The redneck ways may seem crude but are often quite effective Smile Yeah, I guess we all live and learn, I have certainly broken my fair share of stuff already so I think I should have known better. Fortunately there are new cylinders available in case fixing the original one doesn't work out.

@Ken: This sounds like a really good idea, now that the possible minor burrs are eliminated and the piston still sticks. I have some 9mm tubing, which is slightly smaller than 3/8" but I'll just apply more tape on it. Brasso is not available in Finland (I think), neither are most of the other brands you mentioned but would any regular chrome polish paste work? I have some "Autosol" chrome polish, it's white, a little "runnier" than toothpaste. I've used it on chrome, aluminum and plastic. I also have some fine valve lapping compound but that may be too abrasive. Thanks for the tip, this is certainly useful for all readers. I will try this method after Christmas and report as soon as I am done. Have you tried applying some thick grease around the ball socket to protect it from contamination while washing the polisihing compound off? Just a thought.

Here's a pic of the parts:



You can see a mark on the left edge of the exhaust port, and the rough profile of the thread on the head.

Thanks again everyone! I am sure the TeeDee will be fine eventually Santa
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:27 am

Any compound that's fine will work. Toothpaste will also work. I've used rottenstone and oil, powdered cleanser, etc. The burr in the cylinder down there has no relevance to how the engine runs. If you forced the piston into the burr you could certainly damage the piston. No need to protect the ball socket, just wash it out and dry. Anytime you introduce oil/ grease/ grit you ultimately now formed a lapping compound. The soapy water isn't a problem, in fact it's better than using solvent. Like I mentioned, I never had a cylinder that I damaged that I couldn't make work again. Ken
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Surfer_kris on Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:33 am

"Autosol" is fine for the polishing job, it is a very fine grit polishing paste. I use it on cranks and other parts when they need polishing. Thorough cleaning afterwards is important though, ideally one should use an ultrasonic bath but wiping thoroughly with a clean cloth helps too, and gives you the final shiny surface.

Autosol can also be used to polish car paint too, it is really like a fine "rubbing" compound.
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  KariFS on Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:51 pm

I Love This Forum!

Last night I took some 9mm brass tubing and an old piston with an excessive cr slack that I had in the parts bin. I modified Ken's method a little and superglued the old piston to the end of the brass tube and proceeded as he suggested. I used the Autosol polish mentioned above.

With some careful honing I was able to make the (old worn) piston go easily past the exhaust ports. Then I wiped the remaining polish off the cylinder and dipped it in a warm ethanol bath in the ultrasonic cleaner. Then rinse, wipe and some after run oil, and finally a test with the engine's original piston. Success!!

Now the engine turns over with a very healthy "pop" so there seems to be no harm done to compression. I haven't run it yet but I see no reason why it wouldn't run just fine.

I am so glad it turned out OK, you guys are great! Thanks again everyone!

Thank You
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  RknRusty on Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:56 am

Yay, you finally worked up the nerve to do it Lol.
CEF breaths a collective sigh of relief!
Rusty

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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Ken Cook on Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:19 am

Now if you have a few cylinders that turn up like others, you can do the same thing. Spend particular attention down low in the bore. Install the piston upside down and use the skirt to lap the low end of the cylinder. Keep the bottom of the skirt about 1/8" from the top. Don't spend time at TDC. This will ruin the cylinder as you want the compression up at the top. Doing this will allow you to push the engine hard as there's little resistance down low and the engine really winds up. Ken
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  KariFS on Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:12 am

RknRusty wrote:Yay, you finally worked up the nerve to do it Lol.
CEF breaths a collective sigh of relief!
Rusty

lol! Yeah, it took a while to get to the proper state of "flow". The engine was pretty much forgotten in a ziploc bag until the inspiration struck me by surprise. I guess receiving the 1961 TeeDee .15 sort of reminded me of that little one. Still didn't have the guts to do it with the engine's original piston though.

Sorry for keeping y'all worried Wink

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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  KariFS on Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:18 am

Ken Cook wrote:            Now if you have a few cylinders that turn up like others, you can do the same thing. Spend particular attention down low in the bore. Install the piston upside down and use the skirt to lap the low end of the cylinder. Keep the bottom of the skirt about 1/8" from the top.  Don't spend time at TDC. This will ruin the cylinder as you want the compression up at the top. Doing this will allow you to push the engine hard as there's little resistance down low and the engine really winds up. Ken

This is definitely something I am going to experiment with. But I'll try it first with something that is easier to replace than original TeeDee cylinder. Maybe with one or two of those SPI-modified SureStart cylinders. Thanks again for the tip Ken!
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  KariFS on Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:01 pm

Here's a picture of the tool I made. Brass tube and an old piston. Like Ken advised, take the cylinder, insert the brass tube from the bottom end of the cylinder, then use the piston skirt to lap the cylinder with some polishing compound. Simple and effective.

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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:15 pm

That's exactly what I do. I use tape around the circumference of the tubing. It allows the piston to slip if your being aggressive. Ken
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Marleysky on Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:49 am

Ken Cook wrote:           Any compound that's fine will work. Toothpaste will also work. I've used rottenstone and oil, powdered cleanser, etc. The burr in the cylinder down there has no relevance to how the engine runs. If you forced the piston into the burr you could certainly damage the piston. No need to protect the ball socket, just wash it out and dry. Anytime you introduce oil/ grease/ grit you ultimately now formed a lapping compound. The soapy water isn't a problem, in fact it's better than using solvent. Like I mentioned, I never had a cylinder that I damaged that I couldn't make work again. Ken

IT WORKS, IT WORKS! ! !  Just thought I'd post back a THANK-YOU  to Ron Cribs and Ken Cook. I just turned 2 - 049 e bay purchases from fishing weights back into operational engines.  I used Rons suggestion with a razor knife to gently scrape the bur away. Then I used Kens instructions with the upside down pistion and some polishing compound, spin it up, spin it down a little a a time. Wash, Clean and Oil.....POP, POP, Pop...just like NEW.
Thanks Guys......what would I do without  you?? cheers cheers Beer Cheers
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Sad Re: Did I ruin my brand-new TeeDee cylinder?

Post  Cribbs74 on Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:31 pm

Glad it worked out!

I really can't take credit for the idea as I learned about it the same way you did... Very Happy
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