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Post  balogh Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:36 am

https://streamable.com/1ywjl1

Some of you may have heard the news that a North American Aviation T–28 Trojan trainer plane crashed yesterday in Hungary at an airshow, killing the 67 years old pilot and his 37 years old son (both pilot trainers) , and wounding 4 people whose car was parked right next to where the Trojan hit the ground.

Sorry for their souls, and for the graphic nature of the video, open it only if you are strong enough to view such graphic videos.. The crash is assumed to have been caused by pilot error, a horizontal spiral was done at low altitude from where the nose of the plane could not be raised quick enough.

The plane made in 1951 was purchased in 2021 from a Swiss owner, and it had served as a recon plane even in the Algerian and Korean wars, and as a trainer in Argentina during the Falkland conflict,  but was otherwise in good condition.
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Post  Oldenginerod Mon Sep 11, 2023 5:15 am

Tragic indeed! We might get hardened to such graphic images in the media but it's still really hard to watch when you know the sad outcome.
I trust that God will give comfort to those who grieve their loss.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:13 am

balogh wrote:https://streamable.com/1ywjl1

Found another video with commentary:

From https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/654722-t-28-crash-hungary-airshow.html

Comentary from link:
Tragic accident yesterday at an air-show in Hungary 2023-042

Wow, András, this is very tragic, an aerobatic maneuver where recovery went very wrong. The fireball was the ruptured fuel tank contents. No, I didn't hear news about it until you mentioned and I searched for it.
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Post  balogh Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:41 am

George, had it not happened in Hungary, I would not have posted it...unfortunately not so many years ago a similar accident took place here with more casualties...but we know of similar tragedies around the world, something is wrong with these airshows...
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Post  GallopingGhostler Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:00 am

balogh wrote:George, had it not happened in Hungary, I would not have posted it...unfortunately not so many years ago a similar accident took place here with more casualties...but we know of similar tragedies around the world, something is wrong with these airshows...
András, problem is, a combination of over-confidence and lack of practice, I am afraid.

Military pilots spend many hours practicing, because in a combat situation, it is life and death. Thus, they do gutsier things but in light of this. However even then, sometimes things go very wrong.

The 1994 Fairchild Air Base crash was caused by a rogue pilot taking the B-52 beyond manufacturer's published flight limits (excessive turn and bank). This loss of control resulted in stalling the aircraft, destroying it and the loss of all four crewmen.

The airshow crash in Dallas where a P-39 Cobra collided with a B-17 Fortress with loss of all on-board was a combination of errors, not following standard protocol with an inexperienced air marshall mis-directing the planes.

The various warbird airshow crashes by civilian owner pilots appear to be caused by "showing off" (hold my beer and watch me do this! Very Happy ). Doh!

I don't relish the idea that "he died doing that which he greatly enjoyed doing". Sad
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Post  706jim Mon Sep 11, 2023 10:32 am

Pilots are performing dangerous maneuvers at low altitudes over large crowds. What could possibly go wrong?


Last edited by 706jim on Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  rsv1cox Mon Sep 11, 2023 12:04 pm

Sadly common enough for me to witness a F-8 Bearcat crash and burn at an airshow in Rhode Island. I have probably attended about ten major airshows, one in ten are not good odds.
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Post  batjac Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:38 pm

I don't understand why they stopped the roll and reversed it at the last moment. Doesn't look like aileron reversal. I don't even know if that is possible with the T-28 wing. If they'd finished the roll the crash may have been averted, or at least minimized and the people on the ground uninjured.
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Post  crankbndr Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:04 pm

batjac wrote:I don't understand why they stopped the roll and reversed it at the last moment.  Doesn't look like aileron reversal.  I don't even know if that is possible with the T-28 wing.  If they'd finished the roll the crash may have been averted, or at least minimized and the people on the ground uninjured.

They way they went in looks like mechanical control failure of some kind.
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Post  crankbndr Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:05 pm

looks like the trouble starts here. from here they loose altitude quickly. could have stalled?


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Post  balogh Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:23 am

The engine was allegedly not yet fully run in and aerobatics are not recommended before full running in is completed. But expert say low engine power is ruled out.

I also noted the roll was not completed and looked like reversed in the final split second..
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Post  getback Tue Sep 12, 2023 7:16 am

WOW that is tragic , it don't make a lot of since the way they had what looked like a flitch in the plane right before it stopped rolling Sad Sad day
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Post  balogh Tue Sep 12, 2023 8:13 am

Hungarian authorities have already launched a criminal investigation into the causes and culprits of apparent human error...strange but valid prosecution protocol even if the prime suspect ( the pilot) was also killed..most likely needed to decide on the insurance coverage of those wounded near the crash site. Just guessing..
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Post  Kim Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:16 am

Speculating like everyone else, but it almost seems like a hesitation started while inverted, maybe caused by one of the pilots being improperly strapped in and fowling the controls by falling into them.

One of my warbird heroes, Howard Purdue, died in his Bearcat during a high performance take-off-to-roll.  Seems like I read that he'd forgotten to latch his harness, and fell to the "top" of the canopy when the air loads went negative.

Don't know how true it was then, or in this case, but certainly a possibility.

Been a rough time for air shows and warbirds.
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Post  rsv1cox Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:42 am

No "Black Boxes" Data and cockpit voice recorders.  Difficult to pinpoint the cause.  Doubt if the ATSB or the Brits will get involved (Hungary).  Could be an engine or airframe malfunction but I'm thinking "pilot error."  A future Smithsonion channel "Air Disasters" episoide maybe.  (American built/designed airplane) Interview ground crew and spectators.  Finding the cause is important but it will not bring back the crew or the airplane.
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Post  KariFS Tue Sep 12, 2023 12:51 pm

Kim wrote:Speculating like everyone else, but it almost seems like a hesitation started while inverted, maybe caused by one of the pilots being improperly strapped in and fowling the controls by falling into them.

One of my warbird heroes, Howard Purdue, died in his Bearcat during a high performance take-off-to-roll.  Seems like I read that he'd forgotten to latch his harness, and fell to the "top" of the canopy when the air loads went negative.

Don't know how true it was then, or in this case, but certainly a possibility.

Been a rough time for air shows and warbirds.

That’s definitely a possible scenario. To me it looks like the plane went ”limp” just before it got inverted, but the engine ran fine all the way to the end, and I was thinking about some weird stall-like situation, either a stall of the wing or the stall of stabilizer. But the loss of control either by one of the pilots being not strapped in, or losing consciousness is more probable explanation. Or something else shifting inside the aircraft.

It did look like quite a low altitude to pull something like this, but it is done all the time, and by the looks of it (to me), not even 2 or 3x the initial altitude would not have been enough to save it.

Tragedy, and a very close call to those in the car.
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Post  balogh Tue Sep 12, 2023 1:55 pm

A family of 4 were viewing the show next to their car that was set ablaze when the plane crashed and its fuel exploded... and 3 of them suffered serious burns, the youngest kid still in critical condition.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Tue Sep 12, 2023 4:38 pm

balogh wrote:A family of 4 were viewing the show next to their car that was set ablaze when the plane crashed and its fuel exploded... and 3 of them suffered serious burns, the youngest kid still in critical condition.
Sounds like the child has burns so deep that may require skin grafts.

I can hear the family members, especially a child screaming in agony immediately after the plane crash, as family members flee to safety from the scene. The crash and fireball appears to have blown out the windows of the car, exposing the family immediately to flying glass and fire.

It is a flash fire with extreme heat with the aerosoled fuel from the crash in a short burst of a fireball. I remember the U.S. Army's NOMEX flame resistant flight suits. They were to protect the aircrews from serious burns by such flash fires say upon a crash landing.

Following gives further information on nature of aircraft fires and how a NOMEX suit protects.
https://www.flightlearnings.com/2013/01/29/nomex-flight-suits-provide-better-burn-protection-then-dcus/

I corrected a typo in the explanation below for better clarity.
Flight Learnings wrote:Nomex was developed by and trademarked by DuPont. Nomex fibers have a molecular structure that allows them to withstand temperatures of up to 752 degrees Fahrenheit (400 degrees Celsius).

If human skin is exposed to temperatures in excess of 111 degrees Fahrenheit (44 degrees Celsius), it will burn significantly. Burns can quickly become life threatening at higher temperatures or longer exposures. They can also be life threatening if they hit at more sensitive areas of the human body such as the chest cavity, throat area, or the face. These types of burns can cause significant damage to the respiratory system very quickly. This is why Nomex materials are the preferred material in military flight suits rather than the standard DCUs [Desert Camouflage Uniforms]. If there is a fire in the small enclosed cockpit of an airplane, with the Nomex flight suit DCUs, the pilots were likely [to] die.

A good example of military uniforms that utilize Nomex fibers are CWU 27/P Flight Suits. These one-piece zippered up the front Nomex flight suits are specifically made with Nomex III cloth and Nomex IIIA cloth. This material keeps the flames from burning through for up to ten seconds.
I know this does not help those who were unfortunately burned during this unfortunate incident, my condolences. But, some additional info as to how the military services help protect their pilots in the event of flash fires. Of course in this crash, NOMEX would have not been a good application for the aircrew.
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Post  MauricioB Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:09 pm

I'm very sorry for what happened, I'm sorry for the drivers and the spectators there.
If the plane has dual control, is it possible to think of a contradiction between pilot and co-pilot? That is, one of them initiated the maneuver and the other aborted it for some reason, causing the sum of both acts to cause the plane to crash. Can something like this happen between pilot and co-pilot??? Does one want to correct the course of the other???
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Post  Oldenginerod Wed Sep 13, 2023 5:28 am



Here's the actual aircraft at a show last year, presumedly with the same pilot/s.  It seems that the low level roll was a very familiar part of their display.  Personal observation, with no skill involved, is that I think that the successfull rolls on this video indicate a higher engine speed for the same manoeuvre.

Sorry to speculate.

Rod.
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Post  balogh Wed Sep 13, 2023 5:39 am

Rod, correct these are the father and son who were killed in the crash last Sunday. They were reputed pilots and trainers...I may have false illusions, but to me it looks like the horizontal roll in this video from last year was initiated in a bit upward slanted flight path, most likely to gain some height, that was going to be partly lost while rolling..

The tragic flight video shows a horizontal, or, maybe slightly downward orientated flight path and the height loss during the roll must have been excessive, hence the crash...I am also only speculating and relying on my very rudimentary RC flight experience..

The youngest victim on the ground, a small girl, is still hospitalized in critical condition with severe burns all over her body, undergoing several surgical operations every day, and connected to a life support system....
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Post  rsv1cox Wed Sep 13, 2023 7:19 am

So sad to hear about the victims, especially the little girl. A moment in time affecting whole lives.

Rod's video illustrates perfect rolls, two plus minutes in. Can't explain the mishap other than altitude and speed are friends.
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