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Post  RknRusty Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:34 pm

I got myself a new old pre-revlite Norvel .061 from Matthew on Sunday. Ron got an .049. Both I think are supposed to be called AMD or AME, never was sure about that. Mine has an RC venturi and needle on it and the backplate isn't tapped. Ron's has a CL venturi and needle with a tap on the backplate. Mine also has an air bleed hole in the back of the intake manifold... monofold?
Here's what mine looks like:
My new Pre-Revlite Norvel .061 Ame_0610

My new Pre-Revlite Norvel .061 Ame_0611

It looks like I can just remove the throttle needle assembly, plug the air bleed, and fit a Cox type fine thread NV in it and still have the benefit of the screen. Though power sapping, screens are good for me. Matthew says it's missing the gasket between the case and liner. I have a sheet of super thick aluminum foil from a can of peanut brittle that might make a good gasket. This critter is probably best suited for my Gladiator since I put the Big Mig I borrowed for it back on my Baby Streak where it seems very happy.
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Post  andrew Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:38 pm

Rusty --

The Russian Cyrillic letters appeared on the earlier 1 piece crankcases. These translated roughly to AMD and stood for Aircraft Model Engine (авиации модельный двигатель). The letters were later replaced with the English displacements for .049 and .061. Both the AME and BigMig looked outwardly the same, so checking the ports is the only means of determining which one you have. The Cyrillic Д --- pronounced like the "d" in "dog" (equivalent to the English letter "d") is often mistaken for a triangle or the letter A on the early engines.

Pull the head and count the intake ports.  The AME will have 3 large oblong intake ports; the Big Mig version has 5 smaller round ports.  Both have a single exhaust port.

Yours is one of the very early RC versions. These are distinguished by the glued in throttle body and the turned intake screen retainer. It is not the earliest version since the muffler stinger points to the side and not straight out the back. I don't think you'll see any appreciable power loss due to the screen.

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Post  RknRusty Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:33 pm

Thanks Andrew, I figured either you or Ken would pop in and post. I know it's been posted before too. I'm excited to have this engine. The Big Migs are just the sweetest scary fast things I've ever flown. I cannot wait to put this one up. When it comes to 1/2A, speed thrills! I can't wait to push this AMD to MY personal limits.

In case y'all didn't see Wayne flying my Baby Streak with a Big Mig .061 recently, here it is again. And this is tamed with a 5-1/2" prop. Ron and I flew it at the Church on 35' lines. That's pretty darn zippy!

https://youtu.be/oWjSp5C60Jw


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Post  Cribbs74 Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:42 pm

I have watched this video before, never noticed the part where you lost the patch. I lost the entire bottom covering of my inboard wing of the Ringmaster and never noticed a difference with the way it flew.

That thing sure does fly well, maybe I'll build mine and use the Norvel on it.
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Post  RknRusty Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:44 am

Bob Zambelli was out there that day and said it's the best flying Bby Streak he's ever seen. Coming from him I take that as a real compliment. He used to evaluate Brodak's models before they went into production. Musciano's too(or Scientific), I believe. He's never seen my Li'l Satan fly. Next time he's there I'll be sure and give him a demonstration.
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Post  Ken Cook Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:31 am

Rusty, are you sure the base gasket is missing? The Norvel would be somewhat of a pain in the neck to cut. It's somewhat of a Yin & Yang design. It's not just a square with a hole in the center and the 4 perimeter screw holes. The stock gasket is a paper gasket which can be somewhat difficult to see if stuck to the base of the cylinder. Lapping the top of the cylinder on a piece of flat glass will remove the machining marks and allow for better sealing. I suppose you could lay the foil on top and rub it to transfer the gasket shape onto the foil. High temp RTV will also work if placed on thin. I found the Ultra Copper to work. Check your weights between these engines when making an engine swap. They can differ dramatically. Ken
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Post  microflitedude Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:42 am

Yes, the gasket is missing - it fell apart while I was removing it with a razor blade.

These look like they would fit and are the same shape. The question is if they are the same size or not. I sent them a message asking, I'll let you know if they respond.

http://www.nvengines.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=55&category_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=65
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Post  RknRusty Wed Nov 19, 2014 10:46 am

@microflitedude wrote:Yes, the gasket is missing - it fell apart while I was removing it with a razor blade.

These look like they would fit and are the same shape. The question is if they are the same size or not. I sent them a message asking, I'll let you know if they respond.

http://www.nvengines.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-ask.tpl&product_id=55&category_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=65

That's a Big mig gasket PN# 100112-01
The AMD gasket is PN# 100112
We'll see what thy say but it's probably different.
Thanks for checking.
Rusty

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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:18 am

Don't know if it would work in this case. I've found RTV engine gasket replacement sealant, like Permatex Ultra Gray a good replacement for missing gakets on model engines like my OS Max 10R/C.
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Post  Surfer_kris Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:12 pm

I'm pretty sure the dimension are the same on all .049-.061 engines, I think they only changed the gasket material throughout the time (and possibly gasket thickness).

I have run some engines without the gasket go get a little higher compression ratio and that worked fine too.

The older pre-revlite engines are very nice, they are still tight at TDC but behave a little more traditionally in terms of running in. The performance on sport props is about the same as for the revlite ones, but the pre-revlites are easier to fit inside a cowl etc.

I'm not sure how you would convert to CL though, the carbs on these are glued in, perhaps just wire the carb open and see how that works out for you.

The engine in the video has a nice song to it, once you get a taste for the Norvels it is very hard to go back to Cox engines... Wink
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:55 pm

I don't know if it is really necessary to replace the RC carbs on these. It may not look "CL", but many fly RC engines on CL without any ill effects. If it works with throttle wired wide open, perhaps there is no need to do anything further except enjoy the engine.
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Post  Cribbs74 Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:02 pm

The main difference that I saw was the RC venturi diameter. The CL has a much larger opening.

I imagine there is enough meat to bore the RC carb if needed. Who knows, maybe it will be enough for you as is like George suggested.

Ron
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Nov 19, 2014 1:18 pm

Perhaps "Law of Diminishing Returns"? If the RC carb opening is slightly smaller may lead to better suction feed. Since engines are very specific in performance to airframes and props used may dictate whether any further surgery is necessary. Compared with the reedies, these Norvels do pack a better punch.

Anyway, I'm not attempting to derail any specific direction one may want to follow.

I've got one of the older AME .049's with no venturi designed for use with a bladder system, never used. (I'm keeping the Norvel CL tank mount though.) If someone has a need for such, I might entertain an engine trade.

My new Pre-Revlite Norvel .061 Ame_0410
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Post  Cribbs74 Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:13 pm

The type of flying Rusty engages in would require a bladder. That's all I use for 1/2A anymore.

I would use a hard tank with a Medallion though.
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Post  RknRusty Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:34 pm

@GallopingGhostler wrote:Don't know if it would work in this case. I've found RTV engine gasket replacement sealant, like Permatex Ultra Gray a good replacement for missing gakets...

...I don't know if it is really necessary to replace the RC carbs on these. It may not look "CL", but many fly RC engines on CL without any ill effects. If it works with throttle wired wide open, perhaps there is no need to do anything further except enjoy the engine.... If the RC carb opening is slightly smaller may lead to better suction feed....

...Compared with the reedies, these Norvels do pack a better punch....
I'm thinking RTV will do the job too. I'll look for some of the copper type as Ken suggested.

Looking at Ron's CL venturi tempts me to open this one up as much as possible. Suction is not an issue. None of my CL planes run on suction, I've found no good reason to use anything other than a bladder. George is right about the Norvels packing a better punch compared to other little sport engines. That's an understatement too, because they have so much power you can afford to use a muffler and a wide range of props for adapting to flying conditions and model weights. They give you an awful lot of power to work with.

@Surfer_kris wrote:I'm pretty sure the dimension are the same on all .049-.061 engines, I think they only changed the gasket material throughout the time (and possibly gasket thickness).

I have run some engines without the gasket go get a little higher compression ratio and that worked fine too.

The older pre-revlite engines are very nice, they are still tight at TDC but behave a little more traditionally in terms of running in. The performance on sport props is about the same as for the revlite ones, but the pre-revlites are easier to fit inside a cowl etc.

I'm not sure how you would convert to CL though, the carbs on these are glued in, perhaps just wire the carb open and see how that works out for you.

The engine in the video has a nice song to it, once you get a taste for the Norvels it is very hard to go back to Cox engines... Wink
I'll figure out whether to bore out the venturi and manifold or go bathtub style as in George's picture. Like I mentioned I'd kind of like to have a screen on it.
Yes, the Big Mig on that Baby Streak sings a beautiful tune. It has a Cox 128 tpi needle in the intake, not bored, and with a screen. If I wanted to soup it up I could, but like I said above, I have all I need from it already, even though it's capable of more.

@Cribbs74 wrote:The main difference that I saw was the RC venturi diameter. The CL has a much larger opening.

I imagine there is enough meat to bore the RC carb if needed. Who knows, maybe it will be enough for you as is like George suggested.

Ron
Ron if you read this before you leave work, bring it over here so we can look at them side by side while we enjoy our seafood dinner. Wayne will be here too and he got started with Big Migs back in the day. In fact I think that's one of his old ones on the Streak.
Rusty

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Post  gcb Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:43 pm

@GallopingGhostler wrote: ...I've got one of the older AME .049's with no venturi designed for use with a bladder system, never used. (I'm keeping the Norvel CL tank mount though.) If someone has a need for such, I might entertain an engine trade.  
 
I have one with that crankcase but has a plastic intake insert and uses a standard plug. It was called an AME Zeus. I believe it was intended for combat and is set up for pressure with a fine threaded needle.

Yours may be either a Zeus or a transition version before they switched to the crankcase with the muffler lip.

Good luck with yours.

George
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Post  GallopingGhostler Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:48 pm

George, I do have an option with mine, purchase a Big Mig venturi and NVA and thus convert it. I figure in such configuration should have at least the power of a Tee Dee .049 and perhaps a little more. Schneurle porting has an advantage, although I'm thinking that the Tee Dee's porting probably approaches that of Schneurle. Makes one think what if Cox had gone to ABN technology with their Tee Dee with reduced friction nickle coated sleeve and lighter weight lower mass aluminum piston, we might have seen some great phenominal development. Thumbs Up

I think the industry didn't have people to fill in the ranks with the great developers of the 1950's and 1960's aging and passing on. Alas, small I.C. engines are slowly fading away, making way for the newer electrics, electronics and battery systems that were only a pipe dream a decade ago. Popcorn
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Post  Surfer_kris Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:32 am

I think the Cox Conquest shows what can/could be done, it still beats any sports .15 engine out there. It both throttles well and has a lot of power. Imagine if they had made one at about half the size too....
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Post  RknRusty Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:49 am

Oh I'd love to have a Conquest, just can't justify the expense of buying one. I'd build something especially for it. Meanwhile I have a Thunder Tiger .15 that will fill the bill pretty well and need to build a plane for it.

I now have a Cox 128 tpi needle valve for the AMD .061, so I'll update y'all on however I decide to install it.

Saturday is 1/2A day at my Huntersville club but I probably won't have time to get it done by then. I'll just take the two Streaks, the Satan and my Blackhawk Kom-Bat. Maybe the PT-19, Kitty Cat and Reed Speed Mustang too.
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Post  GallopingGhostler Thu Nov 20, 2014 9:53 am

@Surfer_kris wrote:I think the Cox Conquest shows what can/could be done, it still beats any sports .15 engine out there. It both throttles well and has a lot of power. Imagine if they had made one at about half the size too....

I forgot about the Conquest. There's some history there but I can't remember the details. Was this a K&B design? Yes, it was a very hot engine, too bad that Estes Cox didn't continue the tradition. I heard they started mixing and matching engine parts from existing inventory toward the end, so they lost even consistency among the reed valve half A's. I bought two of their Sure Starts before the Estes on-line store closed, paid $7 US for them plus shipping. Compression is somewhat loose on them. When I bought a Cox back in the 1970's, they had tight compression. Fire one up for the first time, there would be fine metallic particles in the spent oil around the cylinder head exterior. Similar to Schneurle, from that point they were broken in enough. Fill, prime, fire up, tune, they were ready to roll.
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Post  Surfer_kris Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:02 am

Yes, the Estes era didn't produce near the quality that made Cox engines famous ones...

I don't know the full story, but the Conquest was a genuine Cox product I think (in the late 70-ties) while some might argue that they simply copied Rossi and Taipan engines. K&B then made an slightly updated version after that (with stronger conrod and copper cylinder gaskets etc) and at the very end there was also an ABC version.
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Post  RknRusty Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:06 pm

Well it's never as easy as it looks. I just went out to the shop to see how I might stuff that Cox NV into the RC intake, and it's not at all suited for such a refit. It'll have to completely come off and either I'll have to bore holes and press it into the raised portion of the crankcase, not a lot of room for error, or make a plastic insert and mount it in that.

I recall a thread where Ken showed us how he made an insert from the hub of an APC prop, so I'm off to search that out. I believe that's what I want to do. It's un-doable too, so I can botch the job and start over without ruining my engine.
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Post  Surfer_kris Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:34 pm

@RknRusty wrote:Well it's never as easy as it looks. I just went out to the shop to see how I might stuff that Cox NV into the RC intake, and it's not at all suited for such a refit.

Yes, that's was my first impression too.
Best/easiest way is probably to just wire the throttle wide open and see how it performs that way.
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Post  RknRusty Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:51 pm

@Surfer_kris wrote:
@RknRusty wrote:Well it's never as easy as it looks. I just went out to the shop to see how I might stuff that Cox NV into the RC intake, and it's not at all suited for such a refit.

Yes, that's was my first impression too.
Best/easiest way is probably to just wire the throttle wide open and see how it performs that way.
It's going on a Gladiator 1/2A combat wing which is designed to house a bladder, so I need that fine thread NV. So I can make it a remote quick and easy. I think I can use a wheel collar and some brass tube and tap the fuel flow out of the set screw hole.

I'd like to make the insert like Ken did with the prop hub and thread the center hole for a Tee Dee venturi and use a KK Tee Dee NVA. But that's for another day when I have time to tinker.

I'm enjoying getting back into 1/2A, so much fun little details, so much fun to fly.
Thanks for your input Kris.
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Post  Ken Cook Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:37 pm

It's very easy to heat the R/C venturi up and remove it. I use a pin drill and drill a through hole in the case. I don't know if you have number drills, but if you undersize the hole .003" you can press the KK spraybar right into the case. The APC insert was actually quite easy to do. Once I had it in place, I used a 1/4 -32 tap right through it. Ken
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