Cox Engines Forum
You are not logged in! Please login or register! Guests are limited to posting in the "General Questions (Guest Posting Allowed)" section only. Becoming a member is fast, easy and FREE!


Log in

I forgot my password

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Cox Engine of The Month
July-2017
Mark Boesen's

Nice original Babe Bee from a Super Cub 105, late fifties.



PAST WINNERS
CEF Traveling Engine

Tach Race 2017 Updates
Ready for Tach Race 2017?
Profile Scale Reed Speed
Gallery


Win This Engine!
The Traveling Prop
World of Aviation

Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:07 pm

Blown off the top of turn 3 on the clover, ended like this:

The crutches snapped off at the rear engine bolts.






I know how to fix this.
Hinges on both flaps were broken. And the outboard wing is broken somewhere at the LE. At the root for sure but probably inside too.


It was just sitting on its wheels like nothing was wrong, with the nose 3' in front of it.
It had been a quality flight up until this. I had won 3rd and 2nd with this plane, I was hoping for first and booted soon.
Very disappointing.
Rusty



Last edited by RknRusty on Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : fixed picture link)

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  NEW222 on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:45 pm

Not sure on this one 100%, and I'm sure someone with more experience than I will pipe up, but here is what I would do. Cut the beams straight and drill a hole in the center. Get new beams and drill a corresponding hole in them, and epoxy a dowel inside then press tightly together. Once this is complete, I would then glue a 1/16" piece of ply above and below each side for added support, that is if you had the extra 1/16" to spare.
Not knowing what the motor side of the beams look like, they might fit tight together without makinh them straight, an only using a dowel.
Anyways, this is just my .02 and what I would try as it would be quickest.
avatar
NEW222
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Posts : 1022
Join date : 2011-08-13
Age : 38
Location : oakbank, mb

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Cribbs74 on Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:48 pm

Rusty,

You are not going to like it, but you already know what needs to happen.

It looks like the bulkhead/firewall is fully epoxied, it's going to be a pain. Still doable though, I use a pencil soldering iron and the Epoxy just melts away. Well, crumbles is a more accurate description.

After that it just a matter of remove and replace the beams.

Tough break friend, sorry.
avatar
Cribbs74
Moderator

Trusted Seller
Posts : 9377
Join date : 2011-10-24
Age : 43
Location : Tuttle, OK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  gossie on Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:20 am

You need to open it up, get out the old bearers, and in with new ones.

The model is too good to trash IMHO.
avatar
gossie
Gold Member
Gold Member

Posts : 133
Join date : 2011-10-18
Location : Gold Coast Australia.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Ken Cook on Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:55 am

Don't open it up. A very easy fix. Cut and sand the beams flush to the firewall. Get a Dave Brown mount, drill the hole pattern into the firewall. You can access the rear F-1 through the tank compartment door. Epoxy the rear of the beams real good around the back where they touch the firewall. Strip 1" of covering off of the fuse and wrap a little fiberglass around the sheeting and over the face of the firewall. A new cowl can be purchased. Bob may even be able to provide you with one as he made the plug for prototype Oriental and still has it. As for the wing, you can probably access the root by removing the belly pan under the wing and do any repairs needed through there, Ken
avatar
Ken Cook
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 2672
Join date : 2012-03-27
Location : pennsylvania

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:17 am

Bingo! Thanks, Ken. Nothing on the cowl is broken, so I should be able to use it. I bet those beams were cracked after the Huntersville tarmac boink when I sucked air in the V8.
Rusty

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  getback on Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:43 am

Mr Rusty said : Blown off the top of turn 3 on the clover, ended like this: Does that mean the engine came off ? or what Un fortunate either way but a least it didn't get the wing ribs , I think that's when repairs get to bee a real pain making ribs and recovering . getback
avatar
getback
Top Poster
Top Poster

Posts : 4062
Join date : 2013-01-18
Age : 59
Location : julian, n.c.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Cribbs74 on Fri Aug 21, 2015 8:50 am

Yeah, Ken's fix is much better... I need to think outside the box more.
avatar
Cribbs74
Moderator

Trusted Seller
Posts : 9377
Join date : 2011-10-24
Age : 43
Location : Tuttle, OK

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:01 am

I hurried out of the house this morning without thanking anyone but Ken, with no acknowledgement of all of y'all's thoughtful suggestions. My apologies. Thanks for the input. I do think Ken's idea is my best shot. Maybe an extra 1/8" ply to reinforce the firewall... I'll have to look and asses first. Fixing the wing, I'm optimistic. I will trim off the remains of the busted hinges and stitch new ones. Whaddya think, a week of evenings?

Thanks all.
Rusty

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:18 am

getback wrote:Mr Rusty said : Blown off the top of turn 3 on the clover, ended like this: Does that mean the engine came off ? or what Un fortunate either way but a least it didn't get the wing ribs , I think that's when repairs get to bee a real pain making ribs and recovering . getback
Eric turn 3 of the clover is straight overhead, and more, just after climbing straight up from 6' off the deck following turn 2, actually behind me as I stand planted. It's at the limit of my peripheral vision while I wait for it to come back around to enter the last turn 4.

I flew into a li'l twister way up and behind me, and got slapped, momentarily caught it, but couldn't get eyes on it before it was swept away again. I caught it again with my back to it and had no way to know which way to turn it. I had line tension for an instant, but I never saw it hit the ground. I had a 50/50 chance of pulling it the right way... Whop!

And that ain't no whopper.
Rusty

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Ken Cook on Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:19 pm

Make certain you align the engine centerline or make it so you can shim your tank if needed. If the mount is mounted too high that could be problematic. Ken
avatar
Ken Cook
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 2672
Join date : 2012-03-27
Location : pennsylvania

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:28 pm

Ken Cook wrote:Make certain you align the engine centerline or make it so you can shim your tank if needed. If the mount is mounted too high that could be problematic. Ken
I will, because I know it might need tweaking. It's going to make the whole machine a tad shorter too, so I might be re-balancing. I only have built-in tail weight, but let's just hope I get that far along.

I could have another Oriental in the box from Wayne for the asking. He doesn't even know about this little problem yet. So another option is to build a new one quick. I could probably do it pretty fast(don't laugh too hard) without all the time spent pondering, engineering, questioning and nitpicking.
Rusty

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Ken Cook on Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:19 pm

I still have a good intact fuselage. That wouldn't be an easy task though. The ARF's aren't built like the kit. The outline looks similar but the internals are very different. The wood thickness is also metric making it difficult to select a piece of balsa. You have to go bigger and really sand it down. Usually when they break, they're broke. Ken
avatar
Ken Cook
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 2672
Join date : 2012-03-27
Location : pennsylvania

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:46 pm

Ken, the more I look, the easier this will be. Tomorrow, step 1, I will pull test it. If it fails, I shelve it, but I don't think there is any damage in that area. The controls seem fine. Then I will cut out a section of the bottom cap to have a look. Wish I had a surgeon's endoscope, drill a 1/8" hole and snake a camera in.

The center sheeting, top and bottom outside of the fuse may be all that's broken. Does the ARF have a "D" spar at the LE, or is all of the strength in the sheeting alone?

Good news: The flap horn is not bent, all ribs seem intact, and everything aft of the wing is still good as new. Wayne has a mount that my engine will fit, and its position will not interfere at all with the plumbing. The 1/8" firewall seems pretty strong, and I plan to apply another layer of ply for added strength to hold the mount. I will consider whether to add it in front or behind the firewall. Either way will get a girdle of fiberglass all the way around the fuselage. And aircraft aluminum(cut from old LG) bearers behind it to spread the force of the mounting bolts. I think I can get the engine in the exact same position as it originally was.
Rusty

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Marleysky on Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:20 am

Rusty - if you can't borrow a used one from your proctologist, you could buy this:

http://t.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-62359.html
avatar
Marleysky
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

I Support My Forum

Posts : 1207
Join date : 2014-09-28
Age : 64
Location : Grand Rapids, MI

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:00 am

Marleysky wrote:Rusty - if you can't borrow a used one from your proctologist, you could buy this:

http://t.harborfreight.com/digital-inspection-camera-62359.html
lol! That's one of the few types of doctors I'm lucky enough to not have.
Thanks for the lead, I should've guessed HF would have one.

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  pkrankow on Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:05 am

If you can wait a month for shipping
http://www.buyincoins.com/item/39285.html#.VdhzaZdD7M8

Phil
avatar
pkrankow
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 2859
Join date : 2012-10-02
Location : Ohio

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  roddie on Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:29 am

Hey Rusty, RE: my PM.. yea, I see what you mean about the cowling-fit. Sleek cowlings look nice.. but don't leave much room for anything else. How does Wayne's mount face-up to the cowling? Are it's beams supported by any gusseting? I'm just wondering if the cowl will fit back far enough around that style mount.

Your feed(?)line looks split-open at the tank nipple. Is that what I see? That's the end that won-out in the tug of war, when the engine separated Shocked I imagine you noticed it.. but just in case that line is inadvertently rotated, you might not see the split.. and forget it's there. Personally, I'd replace that line.

avatar
roddie
Top Poster
Top Poster

Posts : 4862
Join date : 2013-07-17
Age : 57
Location : N. Smithfield, Rhode Island

View user profile http://www.stilburnin.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:30 pm

Hey Roddie. That's the pressure line to the muffler.

Wait and see, that mount is going to be a thing of beauty. Everything will be in the same location, thrust-wise. The cowl will fit about the same. Worst case is I enlarge the holes for the needle and cylinder. No more than a few mm forward or more likely, backward.

The wing has the same break as after the outta gas tarmac bonk back in July. A bit more area to glue and (this time)glass.. I'm still going to do an exploratory on the center of the LE.
Rusty

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  TDbandit on Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:09 pm

If I'm not mistaken Dave brown still makes fourstroke mounts which are longer than the short twostroke version. So you may be able to retain its stock leingh I may end up with a top flight nobler ARF soon so I'm planning on going the same route. (Bandit)
avatar
TDbandit
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Posts : 839
Join date : 2014-12-01
Age : 45
Location : Fort Valley Georgia

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Ken Cook on Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:53 pm

Put the wing perpendicular to your knee with the belly pan on the knee and try and flex it. If you start hearing cracking, I would look further into it. Also pay attention to the flaps when your doing so, if they're snapping up or down or trying to do so, something up front is not good. The center section of the ARF Oriental is very different . The problem is, if it fails or is failing, it becomes extremely difficult to fix. The internal section from the root out about 2 rib bays is a very uniquely built component. Like a car, it's unitized with a piece of ply running perpendicular to the ribs. The ribs are all cut to receive this ply and if things are broken, it becomes a real pain in the neck as your only option is to scab balsa pieces to the sides of all of it. Replacing the rib in it's entirety is a non option as the ply was installed after the ribs were in place.

I don't know how you installed your canopy, but carefully taking a #11 blade and cutting all the way around it carefully can also be helpful. Don't cut through the stringers. The balsa was formed over the stringers and you just need to cut through the sheeting only. Carefully remove the sheeting that was just cut. If it can be removed in one piece, all the better, You now have access to the top of the wing. The cutout in the stock Oriental wing is very large which will also reveal the bellcrank. You will be able to see any damage to the leading edge through that opening and it can possibly be repaired with a strip of carbon fiber or 1/32" ply. The sheeting can be glued right back onto the fuse. Fill the groove created by cutting with #11 with epoxy and push the canopy down into it holding it down with masking tape or a rubber band around the canopy and fuse. Clean any epoxy off with alcohol.
avatar
Ken Cook
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 2672
Join date : 2012-03-27
Location : pennsylvania

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:12 pm

I started work on it tonight. I have a Dave Brown mount that fits perfectly. But first, the wing.
It passed the pull test without so much as a creak. I did it three times, pulling slightly over the legal pull. That's a relief.

The controls seem fine and free except the flaps are shifted slightly so one is almost touching the fairing and the other has a wider gap. I'm not sure why, but they move freely and are still coupled with no new slop anywhere. It might be because of all the busted hinges, but I'll cut them flush with the edges and stitch new ones. My wire flap hinge retainers are all in place and not bent.

The fuselage had some cracks above the wing root on the side of the fuselage. I pressed them all into place and soaked them with thin CA. The outboard wing has cracked sheeting on the bottom causing it to sag. Same area as the cracks from it's previous deadstick collision with the pavement. I sprung the cracks open some more in order to align the wing. I'm not too sure how that came to be, but I inserted a 1/32 strip of balsa to hold it in place and tacked it with CA. It's aligned now, so tomorrow, I'll finish the area with more shims and fiberglass.

Here she is right now:

The fuselage cracks. The lengthwise one is invisible.


This is the underside of the outboard wing. There is a shim in that crack, but it's not very visible in the picture.


Top view. No cracks in the sheeting there, but the fiberglass is going to wrap around from the underside to partially cover it. I wish I had some lighter glass, but all I get around here is medium weight. But it's good and strong, just unsightly and a bit heavy.


And how's this look for alignment.


I hope to finish the wing tomorrow so I can start figuring how to use the engine mount. I thought of trying to bolt it to the inside of the firewall, so only the beams protrude through the front of the firewall, if it doesn't change the height of the engine. But the old crutches might interfere with that. Otherwise, bolted in front, the engine may be a little farther forward than it was. I hope to figure some way to keep it the same. I have some extra room behind the tank, so I could saw the nose off shorter and make a new firewall. We shall see. I'll let y'all know what I do.
Rusty

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Ken Cook on Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:46 am

Bolt it on the front, slide the engine back as far as possible and run it. Check to see that vibrations are a non issue. If the engine has been pushed slightly forward due to the mount, it would be very slight. If the plane is nose heavy then add a bit more tail weight.
avatar
Ken Cook
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 2672
Join date : 2012-03-27
Location : pennsylvania

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  RknRusty on Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:36 pm

The wing is repaired. I filled the rest of the open crack with epoxy mixed with balsa dust packed in and smoothed with an AARP card. Sanded smooth after it set. Then I mixed more epoxy and used some 2" wide medium fiberglass to cover the cracks and also roll up the side of the fuse all the way to the LE. It sanded nicely and is not at all visible. My test puddles for both glue job indicate a perfect set, stronger than I am, as I can't even bend it in half, but it still has a springy quality to it. I considered wrapping it on past the LE to cover a few inches of the undamaged top sheeting. However it wrinkled when I trued to make the glass cloth fit around the sharp turn. I cut it off at the center of the LE and sanded smooth. I'll decide whether to add more to the undamaged top sheeting later. I may just harden it with thin CA and re-cover. Any thoughts on that idea; good or bad... more brittle, maybe soft and springy raw balsa is better? It already has a substantial microballoon/epoxy filet along its length.

Now I am working on the flaps. After cutting all of the hinges out, it no longer is "off" and shifted to one side. The flap coupler hinge lays in place just as I built it. That's a relief, no problem there as I had feared. I punched stitch holes on one side and will sew it tomorrow evening, and do the other side too. Then I can get to work on that mount.

I would show pictures, but the glass is almost invisible, so it looks a lot like it did in the previous pre-repair pic. Since I have no yellow Monokote, the front end of the Oriental is going to be aluminum colored, left over from my ex neighbor's P-51.

Will Davis sent me a whole brand new fuselage, wing, flap and tail assembly as spare parts for my Nobler. Hopefully I won't need them for repairs and can one day build a whole new plane from them.

I quit before I got sloppy today. I'm exhausted from a badass concert in Charlotte at the Time Warner Arena last night. Got home and hit the sack about 3:30am. Alice Cooper and Motley Crue. It's been a Looong time since I went to a full blown high end rock show. I'll post videos and pictures this week. My son shucked out $600 bucks for three tickets for Himself, Holley and me. Can't wait to make a thread about it. We have lots of pics and vids.
Rusty

_________________
Don't Panic!
...and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!


My Hot Rock & Blues Playlist
avatar
RknRusty
Moderator

Posts : 10237
Join date : 2011-08-10
Age : 61
Location : South Carolina, USA

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Ken Cook on Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:14 pm

Now is good time to use those CA hinges that come with the plane.
avatar
Ken Cook
Diamond Member
Diamond Member

Posts : 2672
Join date : 2012-03-27
Location : pennsylvania

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Broken nose, all fixed... Final Installment(s)

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 5 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum